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Microsoft: Google Worried About Bing | |
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| Time: 10:28 EST/15:28 GMT | News Source: eWeek | Posted By: Chris Hedlund | ||
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Google accusing Bing of copying its Web-search results, blogged a Microsoft executive Feb. 2, is possibly motivated by the search-engine giant’s fears of losing ground to its upstart rival. “We do not copy results from any of our competitors. Period. Full stop,” Yusuf Mehdi, senior vice president of Microsoft’s online services division, wrote on the Bing Community blog. “We have some of the best minds in the world at work on search quality and relevance, and for a competitor to accuse any of these people of such activity is just insulting.” | ||
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| #1 By 8556 (173.27.244.6) at 2/3/2011 10:44:04 AM |
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Tripped up by a nonsense word only located on Google servers.
Oddly enough, today a Bing search for hiybbprqag brings up a story on how Google tripped up Microsoft and not the exact same result as seen on this page: http://www.techrepublic.com/photos/does-bing-copy-google-search-the-evidence-screenshots/6191158?seq=4 Based on information of the moment the essence appears to be that, with the Bing Bar installed, Google search results are sent to Microsoft without informing the user. Wow. This post was edited by bobsireno on Thursday, February 03, 2011 at 10:55. |
| #2 By 15406 (209.87.228.158) at 2/3/2011 11:27:29 AM |
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#1: Not only that, but when they were called on their cheating, their response was feigned outrage, a flat denial without any explanation, and a deflection attempt. These days, MS can't even be bothered with trying to come up with a decent cover story for their shenanigans. As someone already pointed out elsewhere, if MS had any ethics whatsoever, the Bing page would have a "Powered by Google" line on it somewhere.
MS should just give up the pretense that they aren't evil and everyone doesn't know it and embrace it. <strokes white cat in lap> "Yes Google, we stole your results! A plan as evil as it is brilliant! What are you going to do about it? Mwa-hahahaha!!!" |
| #3 By 7754 (74.94.83.33) at 2/3/2011 4:20:34 PM |
| Is it really that hard to understand??? It's not specific to Google. Bing would "copy" ANY search engine's results--because the Bing Bar is "copying" stuff from where its users are going. Malicious attempt aimed at Google? They shouldn't flatter themselves so much. This is hardly hidden information--the Bing Bar explains that it's doing this. |
| #4 By 15406 (209.87.228.158) at 2/4/2011 8:10:27 AM |
| #3: Oh come on. Any search engine? When 99% of the world uses Google/Bing/Yahoo, and Bing/Yahoo are essentially one and the same? |
| #5 By 28801 (65.90.202.10) at 2/4/2011 9:29:18 AM |
| If I'm not mistaken, should a user search with say ASK.com, the same thing would happen (so long as the BING toolbar was installed). It is not stealing the search results. It is studying user behavior. |
| #6 By 7754 (74.94.83.33) at 2/4/2011 9:41:27 AM |
| #4: it's coming from what the Bing toolbar users are using. If they enter a search in x, the Bing Bar utilizes that information--which is exactly what the Bing Bar says it does. The x in this case could be Google, but Google sees it as "Bing's copying our results!" Paranoid much? Google =/= the internet. |
| #7 By 15406 (209.87.228.158) at 2/4/2011 1:17:05 PM |
| #5,6: If a user searched with Ask.com, it would double Ask's market share. Ask has, depending on which stats you believe, between 0.5 and 2% share. If the user has the Bing bar installed then it's a safe bet that he's an MS fan and will use Bing first. If he can't find what he wants, is he more likely to go to Google (72%) or Ask (0.5-2%)? While what you're saying is technically true, in the real world Bing is going to sample Google results by an overwhelming margin as compared to any other search engine and this would be self-evident to anybody who is being intellectually honest about it. Yes, Google is not the Internet but there are only 3 big engines; the others are so insignificant that I can't believe MS would be interested in what they had to say, and MS is more interested in copying the market leader, not the dregs. |
| #8 By 7754 (74.94.83.33) at 2/4/2011 1:57:08 PM |
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#7: you're missing the point. Google says Microsoft is stealing "our" results, as if Microsoft has a targeted effort to ride on the back of Google's work. They are not targeting Google at all. They are using feedback from their users--regardless of where they visit.
Always interesting to see how folks react (Microsoft included) when they end up as the accuser for similar things they did themselves. The newspapers and other media outlets were quite upset when Google rode on their backs for Google News. How does it feel, Google? |
| #9 By 15406 (209.87.228.158) at 2/4/2011 2:15:40 PM |
| #8: No, I see what you're saying but I think it's disingenuous word play. When the Bing bar samples what results are returned, it's going to be Google results the vast majority of the time. Or do you dispute this? If so, I'd love to hear your rationale. Plus, MS's reaction has a 'doth protest too much' zeal to it, without actually denying it. To paraphrase what I've read about it, their statement should have been "Microsoft does not copy Google. We copy the results of all other search engines, of which Google's results will make up approx 98% of the aggregate." So, in essence, they are copying Google, and Baidu, and Ask, and AOL... but mostly Google. And by 'copying', I mean 'training their engine to respond in a similar way'. |
| #10 By 9589 (76.6.139.215) at 2/4/2011 3:37:33 PM |
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So, let's see. . . . Search engines, no matter what stripe freely puruse other people's website free of charge and make billions doing it. No one complains that this is done.
Back in the day, there were search engine aggregators such as "Dog Pile." The idea was that you were to go to it and it was to go out to a number of search engines and then get back to you with the aggregated results. I don't recall anyone complaining when that was going on. Now, Google seems to be complaining when Microsoft does a "dog pile" on them. Hmmmm . . . Google doth complains too much. Ingrates! |
| #11 By 7754 (74.94.83.33) at 2/4/2011 4:02:26 PM |
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#9, according to their statement, they're monitoring clickstream data--what their Bing Bar users click, regardless of where those users click. And for what it's worth, if we're talking Bing Bar users, no, they're not going to represent the same search engine marketshare breakdown as the market-wide averages. But that is besides the point. Microsoft isn't targeting Google's search results. The Bing Bar isn't reading Google's returned search results. It's reading what its users click--be it on a search engine page or any other page.
As an aside, it's many of the same people that accused Bing of having lousy search results compared to Google that are now trumpeting the "Bing is copying Google's results" accusation. No irony there, of course. And what about Google News? Many media sites treat that as "stealing." Is it? Google doesn't seem to think so. It can't have it both ways. It's either an open web or it's not. |
| #12 By 15406 (99.240.77.173) at 2/5/2011 10:11:27 AM |
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#11: The issue really isn't that MS was tracking its competitor's results, as that in itself isn't illegal (although the ethics of such may be questionable.) The heart of the issue is that it gives the perception that MS, instead of being a leader and innovator, is a follower and replicator.
"Bing is copying Google's results" accusation. No irony there, of course. The difference is that MS isn't improving its results by modifying their algorithms, they're doing it by trying to reverse-engineer the weighting and decision systems their competitors (*coughGooglecough*) use. It's either an open web or it's not. Nobody said MS was stealing; they were accused of cheating. As for Google News, I don't have an informed opinion on that topic. I thought that web data aggregation was legal under US law so it wasn't an issue. |
| #13 By 7754 (74.94.83.33) at 2/5/2011 1:06:07 PM |
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#12: they're doing it by trying to reverse-engineer the weighting and decision systems their competitors (*coughGooglecough*) use.
Reverse-engineer? Explain how tracking their own users behavior (not secretly, but known explicitly when they install the Bing Bar) is the same as reverse-engineering their competitors' systems. |
| #14 By 15406 (209.87.228.158) at 2/7/2011 8:21:59 AM |
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#13: By seeing what is searched for and what is ultimately selected, you can then change the weighting system you use to determine which results are more or less relevant than others, with an eventual goal of performing similarly to the baseline of what you're watching.
(not secretly, but known explicitly when they install the Bing Bar) Where does it say that MS will watch your Google searches and send the results of what you picked back to Redmond? |
| #15 By 28801 (65.90.202.10) at 2/7/2011 11:09:41 AM |
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It's about surpassing the baseline by improving the order of relevant results.
Running a search for say "Microsoft Haters" might return "Latch" in the 7th or 8th spot. However, if most people are clicking “Latch”, then obviously that item holds more relevance than results 1-6 which might include additional annoying people but less vehement haters. This will occur regardless of the search engine used. Moreover, I would think that if a person has the BING bar installed then they are probably using the BING search engine which makes this whole “Stealing from Google“ argument laughable. |
| #16 By 7754 (74.94.83.33) at 2/7/2011 1:43:31 PM |
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#14, By seeing what is searched for and what is ultimately selected, you can then change the weighting system you use to determine which results are more or less relevant than others
And since this is not specific to any particular site, how is it reverse engineering? Where does it say that MS will watch your Google searches and send the results of what you picked back to Redmond? So... the Bing installer should list every site users might go to during the install process? Or you're saying Google should get special treatment? C'mon, Latch... I'm disappointed. You've claimed before that you'd call out any company for their hypocrisy, but your anti-Microsoft bias is pretty clear here. Google goes out and "copies" data from media outlets. Microsoft's users are helping provide useful feedback to Bing via clickstream data. So of all the sites the Bing Bar users visit, suddenly only clicks from a Google page are off-limits? What's funny and sad about this is that Google is so keen on the sharing of information... except when it's their own. |
| #17 By 15406 (209.87.228.158) at 2/7/2011 2:51:25 PM |
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#15: This will occur regardless of the search engine used.
Yes, except that (for the nth time here) MS and the rest of the world know that Google's results will be what they end up with due to Google's position in search. I hear what you're saying, but it's like saying that the Pirate Bay isn't a dodgy site because 0.001% of the torrents they track are non-infringing. I would think that if a person has the BING bar installed It had already been established in some of the articles about this that the Bing bar was tracking what happened on other search engines specifically because that's the case they were trying to cover: user can't find it in Bing so they use Google. Why couldn't they find it in Bing?, asks MS. Let's see what they picked when searching Google, says MS. Ahhhh, says MS, now we see. Let's add that flavour to our soup, says MS. And since this is not specific to any particular site, how is it reverse engineering? To reverse-engineer, you take a black box and plug in some inputs, check the outputs and figure out what happens in the middle. Are you still clinging to this fantasy that when MS slurps up other search results selected, they aren't Google's results the overwhelming majority of the time? Really?? So... the Bing installer should list every site users might go to during the install process? Or you're saying Google should get special treatment? You're dancing just as fast as you can, aren't you? Ketchum would be proud. I'm not saying any of those strawmen you listed. I'm saying that MS uses the Bing bar to see what users search for on other search engines and sends the results of what the user selected to explore back to Redmond. I say that MS is using and exploiting their users in this way, and I very much doubt they're being upfront about it in the EULA. Not only that, but they are using Google's, er sorry maybe it's Ask's, data to better train their own search engine in what the user really wants, instead of improving their algorithms. C'mon, Latch... I'm disappointed. We both are, then. You've taken a contrary position to mine and will not back off of it in the slightest, despite the evidence that confirms my position. Every time I try to pin you down on an aspect, you change position. Your position is possible but not very plausible. MS has done enough damage over the decades that they long ago lost the benefit of the doubt. |
| #18 By 7754 (74.94.83.33) at 2/8/2011 2:53:47 AM |
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#17, sheesh... it's not *just* Google, and it's not *just* search engines, it's *ANY* click traffic. Again, Google =/= the internet. Do you really spend the vast majority of your internet time ON Google.com? I certainly don't, and I use Google frequently. Your torrent analogy suggests that 99.999% of clicks out there are for Google traffic. That's total nonsense, even as an exaggeration. Where's your "evidence that confirms [that] position"???
Your description of reverse engineering is NOT what's happening here. Your "black box" =/= Google results. Even if those results where links from Google.com an "overwhelming majority" of the time (and you really DON'T have "evidence" for that position), that's not how you reverse engineer. If Microsoft wanted to reverse engineer Google's algorithms in this manner, they'd isolate that "black box" and examine and analyze the output in private, not turn on the firehose and feed the results right back on their open, publicly accessible search engine (for their competitor to find out easily--Google's "sting" is not very sophisticated). If I put a honeypot link on my personal site, then installed the Bing Bar and clicked on it, it would ALSO SHOW UP ON BING. Oh, the conspiracy!! The *c h e a t e r s*!! Are they reverse engineering my site? Only if I'm paranoid would I say that. So you're saying tracking user clicks not valid as an algorithm for improving search results? Isn't tracking clicks one of the the most direct ways of finding out "what the user really wants"? Are you even listening to what you're saying? Who's the one dancing here??? You'd get a high score for your Google News Sidestep. These aren't strawmen arguments when I'm asking you to clarify what you meant--you suggested that Microsoft is specifically going after Google's results. So what is your resolution to that? Microsoft already said they track user clicks, and that traffic is not specific to any particular site the users visit. Are you saying they have to identify Google specifically and uniquely as one of the sites that contains links that may be included in that tracking? What position have I changed? Seriously. |
| #19 By 28801 (65.90.202.10) at 2/8/2011 8:16:11 AM |
| #17: If BING were ordering its search results based on Google's order of results, I would agree with you. But they are not! They are using user clicks as one small feed into their search algorythm. The more something gets clicked, the higher it's rank regardless of the source. |
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