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Microsoft conjures imaginary 'Apple Tax' | |
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| Time: 14:11 EST/19:11 GMT | News Source: The Register | Posted By: Byron Hinson | ||
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The age-old battle between Microsoft and Apple is heating up again, and this time, Redmond is cheating. On Thursday, Microsoft released a company-sponsored snark-fest written by Roger L. Kay of Endpoint Technology Associates that is, simply put, an embarrassment. This report, entitled What Price Cool? (PDF) and breathlessly pimped by The Windows Experience Blog-poodle Brandon LeBlanc, is riddled with inaccuracies, misstatements, and distortions. The premise of WPC? is two-fold: first, that the Mac is a success because Mac fanbois simply want to be "cool," and second, that there's an enormous hidden "Apple tax" lurking to devour the wallets of Mac users. | ||
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| #1 By 92283 (24.64.223.204) at 4/11/2009 7:30:22 PM |
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"Yes, it's nearly always possible to buy a Windows-based PC for less than a Mac. It you want a utilitarian box with which to check your email, browse the web, and wrestle with Excel and Word, a PC can usually get you there more cheaply."
Utilitarian? I think not. No wonder Latch likes this article. Its bullsh*t. $1100 buys a lot of games or better video. Apple: 2499 - quad core, 3GB, 640GB, GT 120 , NO Blu Ray, no monitor Dell: 1399 - i7 quad core, 3GB, 640GB, 4850, Blu Ray burner , no monitor http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_mac/family/mac_pro http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?oc=dxcwpp1&c=us&l=en&s=dhs&cs=19&kc=productdetails~desktop-studio-xps-435 Now, for 2399 from Dell I can bump it to 12GB, 2 x 1TB drives in Raid 0 and a 4870. FYI: The i7 is a Nehalem processor. As is the Xeon. Same CPU core. The Register benchmarked them. The difference is miniscule. In some benchmarks the i7 won, in some the Xeon won. http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/04/01/review_cpu_intel_xeon_5500/print.html And the Xeon 3520 on the Mac Pro is a rebadged i7. Its can use ECC ram, but it is a single socket cpu. "Two sharp-eyed Reg readers have pointed out an error in this article's Mac Pro versus Dell Precision comparison: that a single quad-core Mac Pro uses a Xeon W3520 ($284 1k unit price) and not a Xeon E5550 ($958 1k unit price) as in the Dell. Same Nehalem architecture, but the W3520 has a single 4.8 GT/s QPI link while the E5550 has two 6.4 GT/s QPI links for dual-socket configs." You can't add a 2nd CPU to the W3520 Mac Pro boxes. Idiots. This post was edited by NotParkerToo on Sunday, April 12, 2009 at 11:54. |
| #2 By 23275 (24.196.4.141) at 4/11/2009 10:54:08 PM |
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every PC and laptop we build can eat any Mac for breakfast and spit it out in little tiny slivers of shredded alu, and unlike the people tending bar among Apple's geniuses, our guys actually hand built the machines and know every mm of them.
Any decent builder out there can do the same. |
| #3 By 89249 (70.185.246.66) at 4/12/2009 4:25:27 AM |
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Just to clarify what Parker did and to reflect on Byron's "My Mac does Vista awesome" comment
Sadly when people compare Mac performance to PC it's always Apples to Oranges. Actually choosing a comparable PC for the money one has spent on the Mac is the only viable comparison. And the "i" apps compared to those shipped with Vista are about equal to the average user. The cheapest MacBook Pro is around $2400. At almost the exact same price point on Dell's site (Copy & Pasted obviously) for $2412: Studio XPS 16 Intel® Core™ 2 Duo T9550 (6MB cache/2.66GHz/1066Mhz FSB) Genuine Windows Vista® Ultimate Edition 64-bit Obsidian Black with Leather Accent Microsoft® Office Home and Student 2007 - Word, Excel + PowerPoint 3 yr In-home Service after remote diagnosis + Your Tech Team Edge-to-Edge FullHD Widescreen 16.0 inch RGBLED LCD (1920x1080) W/2.0 MP 4GB Dual Channel DDR3 SDRAM at 1067MHz (2 Dimms) 500GB 7200 RPM SATA Hard Drive BluRay Disc Combo (DVD/CD read/write + BD read) Slot Load Drive ATI Mobility RADEON® HD 3670 - 512MB Intel® 5100 WLAN Wireless-N (1x2) Half Mini Card High Definition Audio 2.0 Dell Wireless 370 Bluetooth Module (2.1+EDR) My Accessories McAfee SecurityCenter 15-months My Software & Accessories My Service Dell Online Backup 2GB for 1 year No ISP requested Also Includes 6-cell Battery Integrated Gigabit (10/100/1000) Network Card Adobe® Acrobat® Reader 9, Multiple Languages Edge-to-Edge FullHD Widescreen 16.0 inch RGBLED LCD (1920x1080) W/2.0 MP Windows Vista™ Premium Intel® Centrino™ 2 $150 Dell Promo Gift Card - Arrives in 6-8 wks, 90 day Exp. 1Yr LoJack for Laptops Theft Protection Compare that to the MacBook at $2397 MacBook Pro, 15", Aluminum Part Number: Z0FZ 2.4GHz Intel Core 2 Duo 2GB 1066MHz DDR3 SDRAM - 2x1GB 250GB Serial ATA @ 5400 SuperDrive 8x (DVD±R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW) Backlit Keyboard (English) / User's Guide iWork '09 preinstalled Accessory kit AppleCare Protection Plan for MacBook Pro (w/or w/o Display) - Auto-enroll This post was edited by MrHumpty on Sunday, April 12, 2009 at 04:32. |
| #4 By 3 (86.1.33.75) at 4/12/2009 6:11:52 AM |
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The cheapest Macbook Pro is $1999 so here is the correct $2499 Macbook pro comparison so people see it right. The dell one sounds like on spec a good laptop, though personally I wouldn't get one from them configured from the experience we went through late last year with my dad's one and their awful service here in the UK, not sure what it is like is America though. Shame they don't let you upgrade the graphics card to the same one in the Macbook as its a beast, shame the Mac's are useless at gaming though.
Studio XPS 16 Intel® Core™ 2 Duo T9550 (6MB cache/2.66GHz/1066Mhz FSB) Genuine Windows Vista® Ultimate Edition 64-bit Obsidian Black with Leather Accent Microsoft® Office Home and Student 2007 - Word, Excel + PowerPoint 3 yr In-home Service after remote diagnosis + Your Tech Team Edge-to-Edge FullHD Widescreen 16.0 inch RGBLED LCD (1920x1080) W/2.0 MP 4GB Dual Channel DDR3 SDRAM at 1067MHz (2 Dimms) 500GB 7200 RPM SATA Hard Drive BluRay Disc Combo (DVD/CD read/write + BD read) Slot Load Drive ATI Mobility RADEON® HD 3670 - 512MB Intel® 5100 WLAN Wireless-N (1x2) Half Mini Card High Definition Audio 2.0 Dell Wireless 370 Bluetooth Module (2.1+EDR) My Accessories McAfee SecurityCenter 15-months My Software & Accessories My Service Dell Online Backup 2GB for 1 year No ISP requested Also Includes 6-cell Battery Integrated Gigabit (10/100/1000) Network Card $150 Dell Promo Gift Card - Arrives in 6-8 wks, 90 day Exp. 1Yr LoJack for Laptops Theft Protection Weight - 6.5 Pounds Compare that to the MacBook at $2499 MacBook Pro, 15", Aluminum Part Number: (MC026LL/A) Intel® Core™ 2 Duo T9550 (6MB cache/2.66GHz/1066Mhz FSB) 4GB 1066MHz DDR3 SDRAM - 2x2GB 320GB Serial ATA @ 5400 NVIDIA GeForce 9600M GT graphics processor; and NVIDIA GeForce 9400M graphics processor 512mb SuperDrive 8x (DVD±R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW) Built-in 10/100/1000BASE-T (Gigabit) Ethernet Built-in AirPort Extreme Wi-F (Wireless N) Built-in Bluetooth 2.1 + EDR (Enhanced Data Rate) module Built-in iSight camera Backlit Keyboard (English) / User's Guide iWork '09 preinstalled Accessory kit AppleCare Protection Plan for MacBook Pro (w/or w/o Display) - Auto-enroll Weight - 5.5 Pounds This post was edited by Byron_Hinson[AW] on Sunday, April 12, 2009 at 06:26. |
| #5 By 12071 (124.171.5.131) at 4/12/2009 10:05:29 AM |
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I think it's fair to say that Apple charges more but as this article points out people don't seem to go about comparing the two in any reasonable fashion. In addition, I would say anyone that's really into pc's would more than likely prefer non-mac pc's as they would prefer to build them themselves - which means staying right away from Dell!
#1 Did you just compare a Xeon Nehalem processor to an i7 720 processor? Are you telling us they're identical? Otherwise you'd be comparing apples to oranges right? You'd have been better off stating - look, with a non-Apple pc, you can tailor the components to the n'th degree meaning that you decide the price you want to pay. If you're going to compare it to a Dell then you probably should look at something like: http://www.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/workstation-precision-t5500?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd Now the problem is that with that workstation, once you attach the equivalent processor, it comes to $2820 for the following: - Dell Precision T5500 Workstation - Genuine Windows Vista® Business Bonus-Windows XP Professional downgrade - Quad Core Intel™ Xeon® Processor X5550 2.66GHz,8M L3, 6.4GT/s,turbo - Mini-Tower Chassis Configuration - 2GB, DDR3 Memory, 1066MHz, ECC (2 DIMMS) - 3 Year Basic Limited Warranty and 3 Year NBD On-Site Service - 256MB NVIDIA® Quadro® NVS 295, DUAL MON, 2 DP - 1 DisplayPort to DVI (Single Link) Adapter - C1 All SATA drives, Non-RAID, 1 drive total configuration - Integrated Intel chipset SATA 3.0Gb/s controller - 80GB SATA 3.0Gb/s with NCQ and 8MB DataBurst Cache™ - 16X DVD-ROM with Cyberlink Power DVD™ - No Monitor - No Floppy Drive and No Media Card Reader - No Resource DVD - My Accessories - No Speaker option - New Dell USB Optical Mouse with scroll, All Black Design - Dell QuietKey Keyboard - Shipping Material for System - Precision T5500 Power Suppply i.e. - 1GB less memory - much smaller HDD - worse video card - DVD-ROM only rather than an 18x DVD burner So in fact in this particular case (using Dell as an example) it actually costs more and you get a lot less! Not a great example to use to back up the "Apple Tax" argument - sort of like what this article is about. #2 *bow* |
| #6 By 3 (86.1.33.75) at 4/12/2009 10:15:04 AM |
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#5
Glad you wrote about the Xeon - thought I was seeing things wrong in his comparison of the two |
| #7 By 2960 (72.196.201.130) at 4/12/2009 10:56:50 AM |
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"And the "i" apps compared to those shipped with Vista are about equal to the average user. "
I don't really want to get into YAMVPC argument, but I have to address this one. Are you saying that the free apps that come with Vista are of the same capability and quality as the iApps that come with a new Mac? If so, that is just plain insane man. |
| #8 By 92283 (70.67.3.196) at 4/12/2009 11:40:25 AM |
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"Did you just compare a Xeon Nehalem processor to an i7 720 processor?"
The i7 is a Nehalem processor. Moron. The Register benchmarked them. The difference is miniscule. In some benchmarks the i7 won, in some the Xeon won. http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/04/01/review_cpu_intel_xeon_5500/print.html And the Xeon 3520 on the Mac Pro is a rebadged i7. "Two sharp-eyed Reg readers have pointed out an error in this article's Mac Pro versus Dell Precision comparison: that a single quad-core Mac Pro uses a Xeon W3520 ($284 1k unit price) and not a Xeon E5550 ($958 1k unit price) as in the Dell. Same Nehalem architecture, but the W3520 has a single 4.8 GT/s QPI link while the E5550 has two 6.4 GT/s QPI links for dual-socket configs." You can't add a 2nd CPU to the W3520 Mac Pro boxes. Idiots. This post was edited by NotParkerToo on Sunday, April 12, 2009 at 11:54. |
| #9 By 3 (86.1.33.75) at 4/12/2009 1:14:33 PM |
| Ahhh so much love here on the forums. For the first time in years its time to clean up the comments. Please everyone leave out hateful comments towards others, any swearing also won't be tolerated. You can put points across without returning to the school playgrounds. |
| #10 By 15406 (72.140.218.146) at 4/12/2009 1:31:54 PM |
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Most of us seem quite capable of debating various issues without resorting to schooolyard name-calling. Most of us.
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| #11 By 92283 (70.67.3.196) at 4/12/2009 2:33:15 PM |
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#10 Name calling may be called for when some people attempt to mislead people into thinking an i7-920 is not a Nehalem processor. Or that the W3520 is equivalent to an E5550. Or that a single socket "workstation" is equivalent to a dual socket workstation.
My comparison in #1 was exceedingly fair. #5 and #6 ... not so much. |
| #12 By 15406 (72.140.218.146) at 4/12/2009 4:31:00 PM |
| #11: Don't worry parkkker. Everyone here knows that we're all idiots and morons except you. |
| #13 By 92283 (70.67.3.196) at 4/12/2009 7:26:05 PM |
| #12 Bad attempt at changing topics from facts to whining about be called an idiot for being an idiot. |
| #14 By 15406 (72.140.218.146) at 4/12/2009 9:38:01 PM |
| #13: I believe it was Byron that changed the topic, and you didn't call me an idiot. I think you might need glasses or a psychiatrist. |
| #15 By 12071 (124.171.5.131) at 4/13/2009 7:57:43 AM |
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#8 "The i7 is a Nehalem processor. Moron."
Sweetie... no-one said it wasn't! The point was that you compared a Xeon to an i7 and came to the conclusion that Apple is ripping people off by charging almost twice as much as Dell. You're the one who painted yourself into that little corner and that's why none of your other anti-anything-but-Microsoft friends on here have come to your support. Simply said, your comparison doesn't prove anything other than the fact you cannot perform comparisons. Then again perhaps you had more sinister motives! "The Register benchmarked them." The who now? sorry? Register who? Are these the same guys that you've commented negatively on for every single article that they've written? Such a sudden turn around - I'm surprised! "The difference is miniscule. In some benchmarks the i7 won, in some the Xeon won." That's fantastic, it really is... and maybe that sort of logic makes you the star attraction at your bible reading class... but the i7 is not equivalent to a Xeon. As I said before, try comparing apples to apples for once. "And the Xeon 3520 on the Mac Pro is a rebadged i7." The E5550 was my mistake - it's what I read off the Apple site without reading the fine print that it's only the case for the 8-core version. The quad-core, as you correctly pointed out, is in fact an E3520. As for performance... there's plenty of sites that compare the Xeon 3520 to an i720, most if not all showing the Xeon 3520 in the lead: Mac Pro - http://browse.geekbench.ca/geekbench2/view/115896 Dell XPS 435MT - http://browse.geekbench.ca/geekbench2/view/116944 I'd still prefer Apple to let users build their own pc's and just license the software. |
| #16 By 3 (86.1.33.75) at 4/13/2009 8:36:01 AM |
| That's my hope too Chris - that they'll release OS X to everyone else. Won't happen with Job's in charge but I can see it happening in the future. |
| #17 By 92283 (70.67.3.196) at 4/13/2009 9:55:45 AM |
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#15 Wow. You found some user submitted benchmarks that shows a 40% increase in floating point performace between an i7 and W3530 when the only difference between the two cpu's in real life is that the Xeon supports ECC memory.
Clearly fake. Try this site: http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu_lookup.php?cpu=Intel+Xeon+W3520+%40+2.67GHz The i7 920 smokes the W3520. Clearly you are the person smoking something. The Apple is a huge rip-off. All one needs to know whether a Xeon 3520 is the same as the i7-920 is look at the pricing. They are selling the W3520 for less than the i7-920. http://www.provantage.com/intel-bx80601w3520~7ITEP31R.htm http://www.provantage.com/intel-bx80601920~7ITEP2VV.htm And that brings up another point. Apple get the W3520 for less than the price of an i7-920. Why are they charging another 2200$ for everthing else (which is mediocre at best) and Dell is charging another 1100. This post was edited by NotParkerToo on Monday, April 13, 2009 at 10:06. |
| #18 By 92283 (70.67.3.196) at 4/13/2009 12:11:29 PM |
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#15 "Register Who?"
You know. The website that is the source of the article we are commenting on. The one that shows the i7-920 to be functionally identical to the W3520. The one that got conned by Apple into thinking the Mac Pro single socket box used E5520's. You know, the suckers who got bait and switched by Apple (just like you). The ones that apologized for being bait and switched and then changed the spec's of the machine they said didn't have an Apple tax. Those guys. |
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