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  Microsoft: .Net starting to take hold
Time: 13:52 EST/18:52 GMT | News Source: CNET | Posted By: Byron Hinson

Microsoft announced new software tools Wednesday in hopes of persuading developers to build Web services using its .Net technology. At Microsoft's Tech-Ed developer conference in New Orleans, La., Microsoft Senior Vice President Eric Rudder said the company's .Net Web services software strategy is starting to take hold. But he also said the software industry needs to do more work on Web services security, reliability and compatibility. Rudder said Microsoft has shipped more than one million copies of Visual Studio.Net, Microsoft's new suite of software tools for building Web services that was released in February. He said the company has also attracted more than 200 software companies to build tools and software components for .Net.

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#1 By 2459 (66.25.124.8) at 4/10/2002 2:22:52 PM
http://www.microsoft.com/exchange/techinfo/development/2000/enablekit.asp

#2 By 135 (209.46.107.141) at 4/10/2002 5:25:55 PM
Hmm. I'm sitting in an ASP.Net class right now and our company is already building apps using .Net. I'd say it's taking hold.

#3 By 135 (209.46.107.141) at 4/10/2002 6:36:49 PM
Ceazar - Well considering we're part of the worlds third largest company, that's a pretty signifigant one.

#4 By 3339 (65.198.47.10) at 4/10/2002 7:09:28 PM
You guys'll rip me one for this, but who gives a sh1t, you would anyway. And soda just politely asked me for some info, so maybe he'll even appreciate a joke.

Did you see this story: http://news.com.com/2100-1001-880298.html

Lucovsky, a MS engineer, said at InfoWorld: "Programmers have to develop a deep knowledge of Extensible Markup Language (XML), the basis of all Web services, he said. They have to become less reliant on application programming interfaces and other common tools that can simplify application development but can tie software to proprietary computing environments rather than making it available to all kinds of systems, which is the entire premise of Web services." Did you hear that? Everyone throw out your brand new VS.Net--we're going back to hand coding!

He also went on to say that SOAP is crude and their aren't really viable web services business models--I guess whatever message suits MS's purposes for the day will do.

#5 By 3339 (65.198.47.10) at 4/10/2002 7:41:34 PM
Ceazar, according to Fortune, soda would be saying he works for General Motors.

zIs that true, soda? Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!

#6 By 2332 (129.21.145.80) at 4/10/2002 9:37:15 PM
Sigh...

#5 - The vast majority of companies that are going to invest in VS.NET and the .NET framework will be doing so for the web services capabilities. That's a given. We won't start seeing major "non-Internet" applications being rolled out in the .NET environment for a while since there isn't a huge reason to do so, and version 1.0 of .NET is limited in some ways for that kind of development.

This is *not* like the change from VS 5 to VS 6... this is considerably more substantial. Your analogy isn't valid.

#11 - Interesting article, and I agree with some of his points. The thing is, since when was it the technology creator's job to create a business model for products that are created with the tools they create? (Hmm... I think that made sense... ya... hmmm.) Different Web Services will operate under different business models. I see a HUGE market for B2B Web Services... a market that in many ways already exists, but in a scattered and fragmented form.

As far as SOAP being crude... the article is not only terse but inaccurate:

"Another hurdle is that various Web services specifications, such as Simple Object Access Protocol (SOAP) and Web Services Definition Language, don't yet address standard ways to reliably route messages between computers, ensure the security of data exchanged through Web services, or authenticate the identity of people using a Web service"

First, the "messages" routed between computers are done by the underlying communications layers... TCP/IP for instance. The security is also done at a lower layer, using encryption and SSL for sensitive data. Same as a normal web site.

As far as authentication, that's completely insane. First, the kind of authentication used for Web Services is up to the creator of the particular application. Second, there are TONS of ways with ASP.NET to secure any resource, including Web Services. Everything from roles to Windows Authentication to Passport.

Another way I've used is to extend the SOAP message to include other information, like authentication information, in addition to the payload. Works very well, and is very easy to implement.

As far as the incompatible ways of doing things... I don't exactly understand that. The way your web service interacts with clients is completely defined in the WSDL. Can somebody give me an example of how one would create a web service that is "incompatible" with consumers that parse that WSDL?

"The upshot, Lucovsky said, is that companies will have to compete on the merits of the application or service rather than on their ability to "lock in" customers with high switching costs."

Exactly... and that's what I've been saying since day 1. People should be *very* happy about this.

This article seems like a combination of FUD and truth. I would be interested to see how Lucovsky reacted to the final article.

#7 By 135 (208.50.201.48) at 4/11/2002 12:58:41 AM
Ceazar - "like that of those who must maintain millions of lines of legacy code"

Who said anything about rewriting all of your code? We've still got COBOL running the business. The goal of new technology is not to rewrite what you do today, but to allow you to do something different moving forward. That's the way you gain productivity.



#8 By 2332 (129.21.145.80) at 4/11/2002 4:28:40 AM
#14 - "I'm sorry, but I'm not willing to accept that statement as an axiom. So exactly what facts do you have to substantiate that statement?"

Well, personal experience in the industry, and a fairly extensive knowledge of the technology itself.

"Instead, I'm pointing out that VS.Net is a version upgrade to Visual Studio 6, and will sell copies because of that alone."

People are not upgrading to VS.NET because it's the "next" version of VS. That's silly. Developers are the ones that are driving the adoption of this technology (unlike in most other cases), and developers aren't that stupid.

They realize how different VS.NET is, and that if they are planning to stick with their current systems, there is no reason to get VS.NET. VS 6 will do just fine.

"MS has already told my firm that they will not correct several bugs that we have reported in VS6, and that if we want fixes we must upgrade to VS.Net."

I find that extremely hard to believe. Microsoft will be supporting VS6 for at least another 2 years, and they plan on releasing another service pack (6, I believe) within the next couple of months. What bugs are you talking about? And how would switching to an entirely new development environment fix bugs that likely aren't even applicable in VS.NET?

"As time goes on, more and more firms will be forced to upgrade for this, as well as other, reasons, even if they have absolutely no interest whatsoever in the managed framework or web services."

Baloney. You accuse me if statements that aren't substantiated... come on. While it is true that Microsoft will no longer be updating the Visual Basic 6 docs, they will still be both supporting and supply service packs for VS6 for at least another 2 years.

"It's just that there are other perspectives, like that of those who must maintain millions of lines of legacy code, and those who must develop applications that are architecturally commensurate with existing legacy applications."

And that's exactly why Microsoft will both be supporting VS6 for some time to come, and why the .NET Framework interops with existing systems (and languages for that matter) so well. Interop is a huge part of .NET, and that is one reason it's catching on.

#9 By 2332 (129.21.145.80) at 4/12/2002 4:13:58 PM
#28 - since when did consumers ever "give a $hit" about development frameworks

It's the products created with those frameworks that consumers care about.

#10 By 3339 (65.198.47.10) at 4/12/2002 5:17:26 PM
My services were built and originally intended to be a consumer service. They haven't built it for corpoartions yet... Since when did we know about this? Oh, yesterday.

#11 By 2332 (129.21.145.80) at 4/13/2002 1:06:57 AM
#22 - That's not entirely accurate. The end user was always meant to be conumers, but they were never meant to "consume" them directly. Instead, Microsoft intented that they be used inside 3rd party applications, which the users would consume, thereby consuming the .NET My Services indirectly.

At any rate, the .NET My Services aren't really dead... they will just be rolled out in various other forms, such as an integral part of the next version of Office.

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