| ActiveMac | Anonymous | Create a User | Reviews | News | Forums | Advertise |
|
|
|
User Controls |
|
New User |
|
Login |
|
Edit/View My Profile |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
ActiveMac |
|
Articles |
|
Forums |
|
Links |
|
News |
|
News Search |
|
Reviews |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
News Centers |
|
Windows/Microsoft |
|
DVD |
|
ActiveHardware |
|
Xbox |
|
MaINTosh |
|
News Search |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
ANet Chats |
|
The Lobby |
|
Special Events Room |
|
Developer's Lounge |
|
XBox Chat |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ's |
|
Windows 98/98 SE |
|
Windows 2000 |
|
Windows Me |
|
Windows "Whistler" XP |
|
Windows CE |
|
Internet Explorer 6 |
|
Internet Explorer 5 |
|
Xbox |
|
DirectX |
|
DVD's |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
TopTechTips |
|
Registry Tips |
|
Windows 95/98 |
|
Windows 2000 |
|
Internet Explorer 4 |
|
Internet Explorer 5 |
|
Windows NT Tips |
|
Program Tips |
|
Easter Eggs |
|
Hardware |
|
DVD |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Latest Reviews |
|
Applications |
|
Microsoft Windows XP Professional |
|
Norton SystemWorks 2002 |
|
|
|
Hardware |
|
Intel Personal Audio Player 3000 |
|
Microsoft Wireless IntelliMouse Explorer |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Site News/Info |
|
About This Site |
|
Affiliates |
|
ANet Forums |
|
Contact Us |
|
Default Home Page |
|
Link To Us |
|
Links |
|
Member Pages |
|
Site Search |
|
Awards |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Credits |
 |
Dumping Firefox | |
|
||
| Time: 15:06 EST/20:06 GMT | News Source: ZDNet | Posted By: Robert Stein | ||
|
It was a sad day last Friday when I uninstalled Firefox from our terminal servers. At the same time, I upgraded from Internet Explorer 6 to IE 7, which fortunately has most of the spiffy features that we've all grown to love about Firefox (especially tabbed browsing). I had previously been happy to give students the choice of browsers and had even set the default to Firefox, since so many students and staff had adopted the IE alternative (often at my urging). However, our business applications teacher brought a significant problem with Firefox to my attention. | ||
|
Write Comment
Return to News |
Displaying 1 through 25 of 175 Last | Next |
The time now is
7:18:52 AM
ET.
Any comment problems? E-mail us |
| #1 By 15406 (216.191.227.68) at 4/16/2007 3:27:23 PM |
| Another victim of MS lock-in, and he even recognizes it as such, but he's doing what is most convenient for his users. |
| #2 By 3653 (68.52.143.149) at 4/16/2007 3:52:18 PM |
|
Damn thomas edison... I'm so locked in to light bulbs. And that darn GE gets patent $ for each one I buy, regardless of brand.
boo *@&# hoo for me. |
| #3 By 32132 (142.32.208.234) at 4/16/2007 3:58:54 PM |
| Damn those useful ActiveX controls. Microsoft should rewrite the useful bits in Java to help slow down those terminal servers. |
| #4 By 23275 (172.16.10.31) at 4/16/2007 5:59:01 PM |
|
A lot of people are.... because it is less relevant to them and also because of poorly written extensions and what is emerging as an understanding - IE 7 on Vista, by virtue of its default protected mode, is the most secure browser now available. If there is a good argument to the contrary, I have yet to hear of it and the more people learn of Vista, the more they discover that the layered defense in depth strategy that does well balance good security with good user experiences and ease of use, really does work and well.
Paraphrasing what Steve Gibson of GRC.com [loosely] has to say, "The more I come to understand it, the more I realize what they [Microsoft] are doing and that they have the most secure OS out there..." Now, I find this interesting for a couple of reasons: 1) Steve is no shill - he's looked hard for faults in MS's operating systems for years and 2) even he does not address well, how thoroughly Windows Vista addresses security [not knowing off-hand, that IE 7 Protected Mode is on by default, or that it and UAC for all users, regardless of password requirements or not, would have mitigated vulns. like the .ANI bug, etc.. - not to mention, hardware and SW DEP, which is on by default in for systems files and also enabled by default on newer OEM systems]. Combine the real progress Microsoft has made in the area if security with better integration with Office, MS servers and the desktop, and one can see the compelling reasons to move away from any other browser and back to IE 7. Pile on new tools for making "standards" based sites in Expression Web, etc... and the reasons begin to speak for themselves. |
| #5 By 2960 (24.254.95.224) at 4/16/2007 9:51:07 PM |
|
IK,
A more than reasonable argument. Except for one thing :) I really dislike IE7, and I LIKE Firefox. I use about 6 extensions in FF and have no issues with them. I am careful about what I use, however. From a useability standpoint, I was ok with IE6. IE7 is too inflexible (you can't even move the bars around) and I just don't like it. TL |
| #6 By 77236 (199.126.246.128) at 4/16/2007 9:56:20 PM |
|
The latest news from security researchers are saying that Vista has many security weaknesses yet to be exposed. One reported security note, the DRM system is an Achilles heel. Some researchers have stated that carefully designed media can exploit the system and gain system wide access, hiding under the cloak of the DRM system. The Vista user and systems protections would not even detect or notify the user.
Scary stuff, very hard to recommend Vista. Remember the Sony CD protection that cannot be removed without formatting your system? This post was edited by VistaRulez on Monday, April 16, 2007 at 21:57. |
| #7 By 23275 (24.179.4.158) at 4/16/2007 10:45:14 PM |
|
#5, What you expres is the most important reason to use any software, which is why Microsoft invited Mozilla/FF devs up to their campus and offered to help them bake Protected Mode into Moz/FF as well as - and as well why Moz/FF are developing support for ActiveX in FF - where the ActiveX Project, as their site states, IS part of Mozilla. I guess the same would be true of embedding IE on FF where one wanted to access it that way - and finally, why, by default, IE 7 is not on the Vista desktop by default and can't even be added to the desktop from the add icons dialog in the personaliztion menu [Google FxDeskIE] for a simple util to add IE back to the besktop and control the use of the shortcut arrow.
As I understand it, Moz/FF is considering how to include Protected Mode into future versions of FF, which is great - that way people may continue to exercise the choices you have epxressed, and still benefit from the protections available while using Protected Mode. It's great to see things evolve this way - where protecting people has been placed ahead of the politics, but behind user choice in priority. I just hope that the pundits holding out that "any technically literate person" uses Firefox. That is an outrageous and elitist posture that has no scientific basis - the reverse is true and has been since Vista shipped in November. |
| #8 By 2201 (194.205.219.2) at 4/17/2007 4:01:08 AM |
|
I don't see what the problem is here.
I use both Firefox AND Internet Explorer 7. People have a choice of whichever browser they want to use. Some browsers can do things others can't. That's a fact of life. No one's forcing anything, you can easily put any amount of browsers on your machine and use them all in whatever situation you need to use them in. |
| #9 By 37047 (74.101.157.125) at 4/17/2007 6:31:11 AM |
|
#7: I use Firefox as my main browser, and one of the things I like about it is the large number of extension plug-ins. Yes, not all of them are well written, but most of them are done reasonably, and work well. I even have a plug-in installed that allows me to use IE7s rendering engine inside Firefox, for those sites, like some parts of Microsoft.com, that require IE specifically. I can also state which sites should load with the IE engine by default. This gives me what I feel is the best of both worlds.
As for your comment, "That is an outrageous and elitist posture that has no scientific basis - the reverse is true and has been since Vista shipped in November". Who is being elitist and outrageous now? Can you not feel the hypocrisy flowing from this statement? |
| #10 By 12071 (203.185.215.144) at 4/17/2007 6:53:57 AM |
|
#2 " Damn thomas edison... I'm so locked in to light bulbs"
You don't know how right on the mark you really are!! He took credit for other's inventions as he stood to make a lot more money selling lightbulbs that he had a patent on rather than paying for a license. "Edison's true success, like his friend Henry Ford, was in his ability to maximize profits through establishment of mass-production systems and intellectual property rights. Edison was often an opponent to technological innovation and change, perhaps because they threatened his business model. In 1887 there were 121 Edison power stations in the United States that delivered DC electricity to customers. When the limitations of Direct Current (DC) were discussed by the public, Edison launched a propaganda campaign to convince people that Alternating Current (AC) was far too dangerous to use. The problem with DC was that the power plants could only economically deliver DC electricity to customers about one and a half miles from the generating station, so it was only suitable for central business districts. When George Westinghouse suggested using high-voltage AC instead, as it could carry electricity hundreds of miles with marginal loss of power, Edison waged a "War of Currents" to prevent AC from being adopted. He repeatedly electrocuted animals with 1000V of alternating current to 'prove' that AC was unsafe, even though protection from electrocution by AC or DC is essentially the same. One of the more notable occasions when Edison electrocuted animals was when in 1903, his workers electrocuted Topsy the elephant at Luna Park, near Coney Island, after she had killed several men and her owners wanted her put to death. His company filmed the electrocution. Thomas Edison thus introduced the practice of execution by electrocution." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Edison #3 "Microsoft should rewrite the useful bits in Java" They did, after they found that they couldn't take control away from Sun. You may have heard of it, it's called .NET. Interesting how hungry they are for control... very much like the hero Mr Edison that your fellow fanboy mentioned! #4 Wow, 3 fanboys in a row with very similar comments - what are the odd's of that? "Paraphrasing what Steve Gibson of GRC.com" Steve "Mr. Raw Sockets" Gibson?? Are you kidding me? http://www.grcsucks.com/ |
| #11 By 23275 (24.179.4.158) at 4/17/2007 8:27:11 AM |
|
#10, That's exactly my point about GRC/Gibson - he's been no pal of Microsoft and among its most vocal critics, and when his tune changed in what appeared to be some kind of discovery of objective reasoning, I was shocked. Whether he's an actual security expert or not, was not the point. He does function as a pundit and he does have a substantive readership and for such people to change what they say, is significant.
Yeah, Edison was one of a kind - my favorite was how he chased early film makers across the country - all the way to Hollywood, California, which was close enough to Mexico for them to make an escape as they put some distance between themselves and Edison and patent lawyers. |
| #12 By 37047 (216.191.227.68) at 4/17/2007 8:28:06 AM |
|
#10: Edison - The Bill Gates of the 19th Century.
#3, #10: "Microsoft should rewrite the useful bits in Java". Actually, the original attempt at this was called Visual J++, but Sun sued them for "embracing and extending" Java in a way that made it incompatible with standard Java VMs. That is why Microsoft is not allowed to distribute Microsoft Java VM any more. When this attempt failed to destroy Sun and Java, then they launched Phase II, which was .Net. To be fair, C# is a decent language, with the team being lead by a guy why actually knows a thing or two about programming languages, having been the lead guy behind Borland Delphi, before being hired away by Microsoft. |
| #13 By 23275 (24.179.4.158) at 4/17/2007 9:21:58 AM |
|
#9, Hypocrisy? Yeah, I am sure there are those that would want that to be so, but there is no evidence supporting it.
Many pseudo intellectuals, seemingly without reason and with a casualness that worked to add credibility to what they were asserting, held themselves out as being some form of deciding body and they dismissed IE 7 in favor of Firefox – declaring the later to be far more secure. The practice wasn't just silly and wrong, it was offensive. At the same time, not one of these self-appointed keepers of the faith, the clergy of the technically literate, would address why they were not able to control or use IE's security zones and the distribution of approved COM Client controls. Not one of them that I heard of appeared to examine IE 7 on Vista with any measure of thoroughness, or objectivity - how could they, they had already declared the rest of us illiterate! I suspect it is worse than that - they concluded that they did need to explain at all. Some people here have presented good facts and they have countered the idea that Firefox was some kind of security panacea, which it clearly is not. For that they get hammered - Parker, and others. I would bet that Parker's network and systems are pretty secure and kept clean. Cont... |
| #14 By 23275 (24.179.4.158) at 4/17/2007 9:22:27 AM |
|
Vista and IE 7 have begun to demonstrate that just as tight integration made use, development and management easier for technical people and users, the same integrated and layered approach to security is providing the same kind of benefits - where no one part of the security system is relied upon in isolation, to keep systems and people safer. The same advantages that existed before, persist - they are just used in more and new ways. Simply, just as Microsoft responded to customer needs for power and features, they have responded as effectively to the need for more secure systems - all while preserving a large percentage of backwards compatibility.
Despite years of carefully planned development and purposeful work, Microsoft and its customers have been characterized as hapless dullards on one hand, and technically illiterate apologists on the other - now you choose to add hypocrite to the list - simply for stating what may be proven factually? Namely, IE 7's protected mode does isolate the space used when one browses the Internet and effective and controlled bridges provide safe access to the rest of the system based upon user choices as supported by information alerts. I can't accept that - you're better than that. |
| #15 By 37047 (216.191.227.68) at 4/17/2007 9:36:01 AM |
|
#14: To quote a bit more of your statement: 'I just hope that the pundits holding out that "any technically literate person" uses Firefox. That is an outrageous and elitist posture that has no scientific basis - the reverse is true and has been since Vista shipped in November.'
For this statement to be logically held as true, then the reverse of '"any technically literate person" uses Firefox' must be true. The reverse would be that "no technically literate person uses Firefox''. I know several technically literate people who use Firefox, some of whom switched AFTER Internet Explorer 7 was released, and they saw how ugly and unfriendly the UI was. Therefore, I have proven that your statement was incorrect, as there are technically literate people using Firefox, myself included. QED. |
| #16 By 32132 (64.180.219.241) at 4/17/2007 10:13:43 AM |
|
#10 Actually, Microsoft tried to make Java faster on Windows. Sun was offended. They designed Java to run slowly on Windows to force people to use Sun computers. Thats what nearly made them go bankrupt.
Once Sun gave the Microsoft hater McNeally the boot and embraced Windows they have bounced back some. Java is still crap to deal with and still slower than molasses. |
| #17 By 13030 (198.22.121.110) at 4/17/2007 10:41:15 AM |
|
#16: Microsoft tried to make Java faster on Windows. Sun was offended.
In the beginning, the techies at Microsoft fell in love with Java. For a short period of time, Java was proliferating around the campus and on the Microsoft web site. MSDN subscribers even used a Java applet to navigate the download tree. Microsoft was embracing Java and, with their world-class knowledge of interpreted languages, had no difficulty making a JVM that was well-tuned for their OSs. The problems started when the Windows zealots at Microsoft felt threatened. The first subversion was to not just embrace, but extend Java. The agreement Microsoft signed with Sun prohibited proprietary extensions to Java (and for good reason). By adding proprietary extensions to Java, Microsoft could use their OS monopoly to control and regulate Java's impact. After failing at this coup attempt, they just trivialized Java and built their own Java: C# and the .NET runtime. (Nevermind the fact that .NET was more of a reaction to the situation than a true customer need.) |
| #18 By 23275 (24.179.4.158) at 4/17/2007 10:45:05 AM |
|
#15, No, the geomerty is not conclusive - and while many learned people may choose to use Firefox, I continue to question whether tech pundits are among them.
That is different from personal choices or seasoned operators taking responsibilty for systems they know well. It does not excuse the drubbing Microsoft, its customers and partner have taken at the hands of the "technically literate" nomenclatura. |
| #19 By 13030 (198.22.121.110) at 4/17/2007 10:49:17 AM |
|
The author could have just used this Firefox extension which allows one to access those persnickety Microsoft proprietary sites in Firefox. (I think one of the comments on the article source site mentioned extension, but didn't post a URL.)
IE Tab https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/1419 I use it to run Windows Update and access the MSDN Subscription site using Firefox. (Interesting note on the MSDN Subscription site: Microsoft seems to like to re-break Firefox's ability to access the site every year or so.) |
| #20 By 13030 (198.22.121.110) at 4/17/2007 10:50:49 AM |
| I still do not personally know any technically savvy person that chooses to use IE over Firefox. |
| #21 By 23275 (24.179.4.158) at 4/17/2007 11:28:14 AM |
|
#20 I know a guy that is nothing short of brilliant - he eats one thing on his plate at a time and never allows his carrots to encroach on his steak. He won't begin the steak until the carrots are gone. It drives us nuts. He wretches at the thought of ambrosia. It doesn't change our affection for him one bit, but does continue to cause us to wonder if he's missing out on some very nice dishes.
The issue for me is not about embedding IE in FF - it is about Protected Mode in IE 7 on Vista actually helping and my hope that Protected Mode will find its way into all browsers according to a cooperative effort by all devs - regardless of other considerations [placing user safety and security ahead of other motivations - and there seems to be some support for this]. |
| #22 By 32132 (142.32.208.234) at 4/17/2007 12:04:01 PM |
|
#17 Java was horribly slow. Microsoft tried to make it faster. They also tried to incorporate parts of Windows that were mature and consistent with other Windows applications.
Native Java app's were ugly and slow. "Published: October 18, 1999, 2:05 PM PDT With an upcoming version due to ship in January, Sun is addressing some of the sluggish performance issues that have hobbled the software technology for desktop users who make use of Java chiefly as an enhancement for their Web browsers." http://news.com.com/Sun+attempts+to+bring+Java+back+to+its+roots/2100-1001_3-231559.html And, 2 years later ... "Does Sun understand GUI design? When will Sun make the Java GUI fast and consistent? By Anil Hemrajani, JavaWorld.com, 05/04/2001 When Java debuted in 1995, the focus was on applets -- mini-applications, typically with a graphical user interface (GUI), that ran inside Web browsers. Developers who had worked with GUI systems, especially Windows and Macintosh, knew even then that Java's GUI support, the Abstract Windowing Toolkit (AWT), was fairly weak; it didn't support basic features like shortcut/accelerator keys, drag and drop, and more. Java has since made a lot of progress by way of the Java Foundation Classes (JFC), mainly the Swing APIs. However, while the latest demos of Swing-based applications are impressive, Swing still seems to fall short, considering how far proprietary GUI systems have advanced. The key problems are: The application takes a long time to load The refresh rate for screen painting is slow The dialog boxes (open, save, etc.) are inconsistent with the operating systems' standard dialog boxes Swing APIs are powerful, but somewhat complex for basic development use Swing-based-application developers don't seem to adhere to a standard look and feel, even though Sun has published the Java Look and Feel Design Guidelines." http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/jw-05-2001/jw-0504-soapbox.html This post was edited by NotParker on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 at 12:04. |
| #23 By 13030 (198.22.121.110) at 4/17/2007 12:08:53 PM |
|
#21: i c wat u did there
#21: No question that protected mode is a good thing. (Shouldn't isolating and restricting processes be the OS's responsibility? I digress...) The issue for me concerning this article has to do with the defeatism of the author. He wants to do things a certain way. His users want to do things certain way. However, the Microsoft lock-in throws wrenches at their process. Sure, he could have did a bit of research and used the FF extension, but the real issue is the fact that it was just easier to "give up" in order to use a key feature of Office 2007. You mean to tell me that Microsoft, with all of its brilliant developers and billions of dollars, could not have designed the Office 2007 online templates feature to work with any browser? A true nerd never walks away from a mental challenge, yet we see this challenge conveniently ignored. Are the Microsoft nerds working for the users or "the man"? |
| #24 By 13030 (198.22.121.110) at 4/17/2007 12:16:04 PM |
| #22: NotParker, are you speaking from experience or from "Microsoft Live"(tm) "Live Search" search results? I spoke from experience. I was doing some pretty cutting edge stuff during the first few years of Java, so I know the strengths and weaknesses of the language and the VMs running on different OSs. |
| #25 By 37047 (216.191.227.68) at 4/17/2007 12:16:14 PM |
|
#21: Protected Mode in Firefox would be cool. Then it would have another feature that IE 7 doesn't have. Namely, protected mode under XP.
#22: Way to go! Nice way to spread more lies and FUD. Who would ever have thought of quoting old articles from 6 to 8 years ago, and hope that people think they have any relevance to modern JVM designs and implimentations. And you wonder why people (aside from miniMoore and Ketchum) refuse to take you seriously. |
|
Write Comment
Return to News |
Displaying 1 through 25 of 175 Last | Next |
The time now is
7:18:52 AM
ET.
Any comment problems? E-mail us |
