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Munich begins Linux replacement of Windows | |
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| Time: 18:39 EST/23:39 GMT | News Source: ComputerWorld | Posted By: Andre Da Costa | ||
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September 21, 2006 (IDG News Service) -- Munich has begun its migration to Linux on the desktop, a year later than planned and nearly three years since the city announced its move to open-source software. "There have been some delays along the way, but we're now moving steadily ahead," Florian Schiessl, manager of the city of Munich's "Limux" project, said today in an interview. Limux is shorthand for the "Linux in Munich" initiative. Since Tuesday, the first 100 of the city's 14,000 PCs have been switched from Microsoft Corp.'s Windows operating system and Office applications to Linux and OpenOffice. | ||
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| #1 By 32132 (142.32.208.238) at 9/21/2006 6:45:57 PM |
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"By the end of the year, Munich plans to have migrated 200 computers to the open-source desktop environment."
100 more in the next 3 months. 33.33 per month. 13,900 / 33.33 = 417 months = 34.75 years. Won't the version of Linux they are deploying be out of date by then? |
| #2 By 46122 (68.237.243.127) at 9/21/2006 11:55:04 PM |
| If it takes them 3 years to switch 14,000 to linux, how many people want to bet they will be back to microsoft faster then that? |
| #3 By 9589 (71.71.39.105) at 9/22/2006 12:59:53 AM |
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You just have to shake your head in disbelief when you read this article. It has taken them four years to get to this point and they are two years until completion - maybe. Six years to migrate 14,000 computers. And the article states that they are already having formatting and processing problems. Yet, this phase of the migration only involved workers that perform the most basic of office functions. Unbelievable . . .
If it weren't such a sad state of affairs for the people that have to work for the city of Munich, this would be one of the funniest stories in the annuls of open sore computing. I can't figure out is these guys are more like the Marx's brothers or the Three Stooges. Heck, I am going with the Three Stooges - I can tell you who reminds me of Curly! lol |
| #4 By 23275 (68.17.42.38) at 9/22/2006 1:24:19 AM |
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#3, Great points.
I think the saddest part is that it is the EU's culture and not OSS, or the city of Munich that is trying to stuff ALL people into such a small, pre-defined space and set of functions that people are SUPPOSED to perform on a personal computer! It's that kind of mentality that sucks the life out of people - stamp them out and make them all the same... compliant...mindless... and cooperative... all because "it's better for them and we EU leaders know best..." It is so sad.... I went to the University of Maryland Munich Campus while working in Munich in the early 80's - they were such great people - so thougtful and hard working... I just can't imagine the people of Munich tolerating being constrained in any way. They're going to use Vista at home, come into work and be subjected to this and they are going to revolt against it. They're going to see and use Office 2007 and then try and stuff themselves into OpenOffice and do the same. |
| #5 By 3653 (68.52.143.149) at 9/22/2006 6:46:36 AM |
| dont forget folks, a MAJOR linux maker is HQ'd just down the street from this Munich project. |
| #6 By 52115 (66.181.69.250) at 9/22/2006 9:52:25 AM |
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#4:
"They're going to use Vista at home, come into work and be subjected to this and they are going to revolt against it. They're going to see and use Office 2007 and then try and stuff themselves into OpenOffice and do the same." That's the thing. A lot of people over in Europe use OSS more then Windows. In America, we've always had computer with some kind of MS system installed. So they're probably actually welcoming the change since chances are, this is what they use at home. |
| #7 By 13030 (198.22.121.110) at 9/22/2006 10:04:32 AM |
| Yet another bungling corporate decision. Companies have such an affinity for wasting money on replacing "good enough" software systems while always underestimating the total cost of the project. How many years will this actually take to have a positive ROI for Munich? |
| #8 By 2960 (68.101.39.180) at 9/22/2006 10:59:00 AM |
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I'm not for or against this (don't really care), but haven't you guys ever heard of validation testing and controlled roll-outs?
Just because they are deploying at this rate now, doesn't mean the rate will stay the same forever. TL |
| #9 By 47914 (24.225.231.107) at 9/22/2006 11:17:22 AM |
| Just think of how many bureaucratic, nepotistic, over-paid, do-nothing "manager's" jobs this has created. |
| #10 By 15406 (216.191.227.68) at 9/22/2006 11:22:38 AM |
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#3: Format conversion is always going to be a problem when you've locked yourself into a single vendor's proprietary, closed file formats. That's why things like ODF are good, while DOC is bad.
#7: The point being, once they've cleansed themselves of endless MS licensing fees then it will work out and deliver substantial savings. And this counts now more than ever since MS is always hammering Linux in their half-baked ROI studies for 'training costs'. With Vista and the new Office coming out with different interfaces, I guess the same training costs while have to go into upgrading to new MS offerings. Higher costs all round with MS. And don't forget that MS' ROI studies ALWAYS ignore the cost of preventing & cleaning up virus & malware attacks that happen far too frequently. #8: Exactly, but you're wasting your time being practical when the majority here want to be deliberately obtuse. |
| #11 By 32132 (142.32.208.238) at 9/22/2006 1:50:14 PM |
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#10 coffee girl, Sun has patents on ODF and Adobe has patents on PDF.
We've been down this road. The OSS definition of "open" is inherently dishonest. |
| #12 By 32132 (142.32.208.238) at 9/22/2006 2:00:59 PM |
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"once they've cleansed themselves of endless MS licensing fees"
If they keep XP for 5 years, I think it works out to 10 cents a day per employee. Ditto for Office. I can't believe how stupid Munich is being to "save" a trivial amount of money, when the loss in productivity will lose them so much more! And, in fact, "Microsoft underbid IBM and SuSE by $11.9 million in Munich" So Munich, bitten by the OSS fanatic bug, is throwing away 11.9 million $. Idiots. |
| #13 By 15406 (216.191.227.68) at 9/22/2006 2:27:47 PM |
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#11: Yes, and the grass is green. What was your point again? Please explain your comment about OSS' supposed dishonesty. Is it like Microsoft's dishonesty? I'm not sure I follow you. I'm don't know how ODF could be more open. Anyone can implement the ODF specification without fear of lawsuit by Sun. The patents are there to protect the technology from convicted predatory monopolists that would take it and subvert it, sort of like Java. And yes, we've been down this road many times yet you never learn and keep saying the same things that have been proven false time and again.
#12: Wow, if they keep XP for 50 years, then the savings are even better! 1 cent per day per employee. Maybe if you play with the numbers long enough, you'll find a scenario where MS pays you to run Windows & Office. And you're crazy if you think MS licensing fees for Munich are a 'trivial amount of money'. I'm sure their taxpayers would disagree with you, as well as their IT chief. And what loss of productivity are you referring to? Do you have ANY references to back up these statements?? I would think they'd be more productive when they don't need to disinfect all their Windows boxes every couepl of weeks. As for MS underbidding, that's an old trick. MS doesn't want ANYONE moving to Linux, so they'll give Windows away if that's what it takes. Once you're locked into Windows, then the prices go up. They've been playing that game in the education sector. "We're Microsoft and we're so wonderful that we'll give your school a whole bunch of free MS licenses first time around. We'll discuss pricing for upgrades and support at a later date." Don't drug dealers operate in a simlar fashion? |
| #14 By 32132 (142.32.208.238) at 9/22/2006 3:08:59 PM |
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http://www.techography.com/article.php?story=20041122074022491
"Documents obtained by USA TODAY show Microsoft subsequently lowered its pricing to $31.9 million and then to $23.7 million — an overall 35% price cut. The discounts were for naught. On May 28, the city council approved a more expensive proposal — $35.7 million — from German Linux distributor SuSE and IBM, a big Linux backer." Linux: 11.9 million more expensive than Microsoft. Microsoft haters are sure willing to pay through the nose for open source. Idiots. Linux = $2550 per desktop. Outrageous!!!! |
| #15 By 15406 (216.191.227.68) at 9/22/2006 3:33:26 PM |
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#14: As usual, you only look at the facts that match your views. Munich obviously recognized that the increased initial expense would quickly be made up by future savings in licensing fees. They also recognized the benefits of open source software and open standards. Freedom is hard to put a price on. However, they could be locked in to Windows for 24 million if they chose to. They didn't. They could have used Linux to squeeze MS for better prices, but obviously they were sick & tired of MS' shenanigans and the never-ending woe that is Windows and decided to vote with their feet. More and more cities are starting down this same path. This is just the trickle of the dam starting to burst.
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| #16 By 32132 (142.32.208.238) at 9/22/2006 4:10:52 PM |
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What " future savings in licensing fees"?
For 11.9 million they could buy new desktops for everyone. "Freedom is hard to put a price on." Linux is like Paris Hilton. Sure it looks cheap on the outside, but maintenance costs are a killer. "More and more cities" are coming to their senses and deciding to not throw away their money for zero gain just because OSS fanatics claim they will be "free as in beer". |
| #17 By 15406 (216.191.227.68) at 9/22/2006 4:44:25 PM |
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#16: Really? Which cities were those again? You didn't say. Meanwhile, Motorola is doing neat things with Linux, and Novell is about to offer a realtime Linux. Is there a realtime Windows? Didn't think so.
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| #18 By 32132 (142.32.208.238) at 9/22/2006 4:59:26 PM |
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"the council admitted it has postponed plans to migrate 12,000 desktops to Linux, due to other investment priorities.
Reports in Computerworld Norway, subsequently picked up by at least one blogger, said Bergen had halted the migration from HP/UX servers and Microsoft Windows desktops to Novell's Suse Linux platform, citing training issues and fears that an exaggerated faith in Linux was damaging some functions." http://www.itweek.co.uk/itweek/news/2163379/bergen-postpones-desktop-linux Translation: Too expensive ... and no gain at all to move to Linux. I love the term "exagerated faith". The cult is losing big converts because people have figured out cults are compulsive liars about the benefits of joining. |
| #19 By 15406 (24.43.125.29) at 9/22/2006 8:19:13 PM |
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#18: I can't believe that even you would be so dumb as to post a snippet of an article to make a point, when the very next paragraph refutes it all. Nice work, Parkkker.
"Reports in Computerworld Norway, subsequently picked up by at least one blogger, said Bergen had halted the migration from HP/UX servers and Microsoft Windows desktops to Novell's Suse Linux platform, citing training issues and fears that an exaggerated faith in Linux was damaging some functions. However, Lars Tveit, director for competition and development at Bergen City Council, said his comments had been taken out of context and that despite some challenges during the migration, leading to increased use of expensive consultants, the overall project to migrate servers in its education and other departments had been a success." "challenges during the migration". I wonder if they mean all the hassle of converting closed proprietary formats into open standards. That's always going to be a problem when trying to escape the MS lock-in machine. |
| #20 By 15406 (24.43.125.29) at 9/22/2006 8:54:15 PM |
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#18: Since no one is using Linux (according to you), you might want to take a gander at this Businessweek article about India's adoption of Linux in the education and government sectors:
http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/sep2006/gb20060921_463452.htm Quite interesting and informative. |
| #21 By 28801 (68.81.50.122) at 9/22/2006 9:39:16 PM |
| #20 But when the girls of India's Cotton Hill High School graduate and get a job, they'll buy a PC or Laptop with Vista. |
| #22 By 32132 (64.180.219.241) at 9/22/2006 11:14:30 PM |
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#19 They no longer plan to migrate 12,000 desktops.
Big loss for OSS fanatics. Huge. Embarrassingly huge loss for OSS. "Plans to move 12,000 desktops to OpenOffice and Linux, however, have been put on ice, according to Tviet. He said the main reason for the postponement was that the Council wanted to instead invest in citizen-facing IT services, but he also admitted that retraining staff familiar Windows would have proved a "burden"." And hey, why throw away 12 million dollars like Munich is doing just so some of the "exagerated faithful" can claim a victory over the evil Microsoft. #20 "Researcher IDC (IDC) estimates that the Indian Linux market will grow by 21% annually, to $19.9 million in 2010, mostly for services provided by companies such as Red Hat (RHAT), IBM, and locals like Wipro (WIT) and Tata Consultancy Services." Oh my god!! 19.9 million by 2010!!! Microsoft is doomed. Ha ha ha ha ha ha. By the way, Redhat is more expensive than Windows in many cases. |
| #23 By 32132 (64.180.219.241) at 9/22/2006 11:16:47 PM |
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"Linux, meanwhile, is having some growing pains. One issue that has slowed its spread is counterfeiting. Since software is widely pirated in India, many users pay nothing for the Windows operating system and other Microsoft applications that they use. Also, since Linux is distributed free, it's not always obvious whom to call for service. Companies such as Red Hat and IBM support the software -- for a fee -- but they're having trouble finding Linux-trained engineers in India.
Those issues have led some companies to abandon Linux. For instance, North Delhi Power Ltd. started using Linux both in its servers and on the desktop in 2002. But the Linux e-mail program it was using, Sendmail, never quite worked right. The company soon switched to Windows and Microsoft's Exchange e-mail server, and it has no plans to go back. ``There were immense maintenance, service, and upgrade issues,'' says Akhil Pandey, NDP's principal executive officer." Quite rightly that company shose value for the dollar rather than the Paris Hilton of operating systems - cheap on the outside, but expensive to maintain. |
| #24 By 15406 (24.43.125.29) at 9/23/2006 12:14:02 AM |
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#23: You're bringing up problems they had 4 years ago? 4 years? Linux has improved by leaps and bounds in that timeframe, while Vista got delayed and delayed.
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| #25 By 32132 (64.180.219.241) at 9/23/2006 10:52:32 AM |
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#24 Ok. How about IDC acknowledging that in the last quarter Windows Server sales increased by 11% while Linux only grew by 9.7%.
Maybe those stories about how expensive Linux really is, and how the features aren't as strong as those on Windows, and how Linux is harder to maintain are frightening away the customers. |
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