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Microsoft: Vista Launch In Europe On Track | |
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| Time: 06:49 EST/11:49 GMT | News Source: CRN | Posted By: Jonathan Tigner | ||
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Microsoft said Thursday it was on track to launch its Windows Vista operating system in Europe in January but again asked the European Commission to detail concerns it may have with the system. "The release of Vista, as far as we are concerned, remains on track. However, we have received no clarity as of yet from the Commission over their concerns," said a Microsoft spokesman at the release of a study it commissioned on the potential economic gains from Vista. "To say nothing creates an uncertain environment. We urge the Commission sooner rather than later to come forward with their concerns," the spokesman said. The European Union's executive Commission, which has been involved in a long antitrust battle with the U.S. software company, this week warned Microsoft against foreclosing competition in computer security by tying new security features into Vista. | ||
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| #1 By 8556 (12.217.111.92) at 9/15/2006 10:41:52 AM |
| EU is acting like adolescents in this instance. Any concern by them needs to be elucidated so it can be properly addressed. The EU commision seems to be playing a game of "gotchya", where they can say "I told you not to have a secure OS", after other software companies (Symantec, Mcafee, etc) that have grown fat, dumb, and happy over MS's OS woes cry foul over MS fixing the problems that gave the cry babies easy money. |
| #2 By 15406 (216.191.227.68) at 9/15/2006 1:43:05 PM |
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#1: The law is the law and the EU is there to enforce it. This situation is similar to what the FCC does. They absolutely will not tell you what is obscene, but they will come down on you the second there is a complaint and they determine that what you did is obscene. It's not the EU's job to tell MS what constitutes antitrust violation. MS has lawyers that are supposed to interpret the law for MS. However, this isn't the first time MS has played dumb when it suits them. They want everything spelled out with exact and total specificity so that they can find a loophole. The EU won't play that game, just as the FCC doesn't.
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| #3 By 23443 (12.35.96.66) at 9/15/2006 5:03:04 PM |
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Ok, so you are getting ready to walk out the door, and you get a call from the local police department, and they say "Don't drive your car, because it might be illegal." So you ask the nice person at the other end of the phone what might be illegal, and they say "We can't tell you because you might figure out how to become legal."
I don't think so. Bad argument Latch. Try something else. If the EU thinks that Microsoft is about to break the law, they need to give MS a chance to fix it by letting them know how they are about to break the law. If you get pulled over for speeding, it's because the speed limit was posted and you exceeded it. If you got pulled over on a road with no posted speed limits, and no laws that defined speeding, and you were told you were getting a speeding ticket, would you fight it? TowerDave |
| #4 By 15406 (24.43.125.29) at 9/15/2006 9:00:20 PM |
| #4: Hey, I'm just telling you how it is. If you want to argue, argue with the FCC and the EC. Your car analogies are faulty. For example, nobody from the government or police has explicitly told me that murder is illegal, yet I doubt I could use that as a defense if I murdered someone. To go back to your hypothetical ticket, I wouldn't fight it on those grounds. Many roads do not have posted speed limits and you are expected to know what they are. Where I live, if there is no posted speed limit on a residential street then you are expected to know it's 40 KM/h (25 M/h). As the saying goes, ignorance of the law is no excuse. MS has to seriously look at how the integration of new features could crush established markets. It's not so much that they can't add new features, but they can't add them in such a way that it excludes third parties from also creating competing products or gives MS some unfair advantage over their competitors. And that's not even considering the automatic advantage they get from bundling the app with the OS. I'm all for MS making Vista as secure and functional as they can, but I don't want them pulling a funny and using some lame technobabble excuse as to why they had to lock everyone out of API x or module y. |
| #5 By 23275 (68.17.42.38) at 9/15/2006 9:55:50 PM |
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Latch... outrageous.... the willful, or negligent acts of a person that result in the death, or deaths of another human, or humans is murder... it is a "Written Statute" with SPECIFIC criminal codes designated by Title! It is specifically written, studied and learned - it is called the "Criminal Code" - your argument is without any merit whatever.
Laws, both civil and criminal, are based upon written codes and supported by written precedents and further upheld by higher courts, which are governed by guiding principles - our constitution and judicial review come to mind... It is quite simple - no law - no law violation. The EU, in response to complaints brought before it which "Allege" some form of civil misconduct, has consistently chosen to move such cases, as regard Microsoft, forward without necessarily having determined any civil misconduct. That type of selective application of the law is also highly illegal and can and should, in and of itself, result in the immediate dismissal of any case brought under such circumstances. #3 is dead on... laws are and must be, "written" and based upon the tested weight of the considerations as at written civil and criminal codes and being supported by precedent. If lower courts and their officers violate these governing rules, then higher courts "MUST" over turn them. If the higher court finds that the lower court has ruled in a way that is unlawful, then the lower court may itself be censured, prosecuted and punished. It is how the courts and their power are checked and prevented from abusing their power. One final thought... any court within any democracy has no power to make laws, or extract new laws by interpretation of existing laws. Various legislative bodies do that - and even those are tested for compliance - for example, murder is an act which violates written statutes at various levels within any governed society - one statute at the state level and another at the federal level [both exist and are written]. Microsoft's position is entirely valid - they are asking for clarification - the EU is refusing to define that conduct which it finds offensive - instead they are leaving a very wide door open to essentially legislate from the bench and impose horrific fines - all designed to blunt Microsoft's ability to operate, or build new, or improved products. It is outrageous and by the way... "ILLEGAL" - their own system is exactly designed to disallow this sort of behavior - Europeans being rightfully sensitive to abuses by the courts against their own people. The EU's conduct by the way, is one very good example and reason why the U.S., adopted and evolved a blend between British Common Law and Napoleonic Code - where one, BCL, did not protect the people from the state nearly well enough. |
| #6 By 20505 (216.102.144.11) at 9/15/2006 10:24:01 PM |
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I am no defender of the EU, in fact I find their handling of MS to be very suspect, but I must agree when there is an issue of interpretation of a ruling that the onus is on MS to comply based on their knowledge of local statute.
Often governmental agencies follow guidelines that are based on administrative directives and not law per se. If MS or any company is found to be in violation of a directive then it is referred to another body to see if the actions of that company are “illegal”. Laws are open to interpretation and often conflicting, it the expressed duty of the judiciary to interpret them (not the legislature). The directives are often not specific but are guidelines. My problem with the EU’s current position is that I see nowhere that any European company is being threatened by MS’s actions. The allegations of abuse are from American companies seeking redress in Europe because they feel the EU is more open to pursuing allegation than the US. When the EU fines MS both sides gain. The EU walks away with millions in fines (a hidden MS tax) and the American companies get MS to give them some slack. The rub comes if MS decides to offer a crippled OS in Europe. Under these circumstances, the EU will have to answer to millions of Europeans who will cry foul. That is when things will get very interesting. Very interesting, indeed. |
| #7 By 16797 (65.95.20.32) at 9/16/2006 12:12:33 AM |
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Why can't EU have an expert group that would monitor Microsoft and tell them when something is wrong, just like in the USA, so that the problems are fixed sooner rather than later?
That's how they fixed that draft licence for Media Player, IIRC. They raised the question, informed the judge and she ordered MS to change it. And MS changed it. Is it not better? I found it: (October 26, 2005) "It seems to me that at this date, you should not be having something like this occur," U.S. District Judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly said at a status conference here, adding that she found the issue "one of concern." As previously reported by CNET News.com, a recent federal court filing revealed that Microsoft initially drafted a marketing agreement with language indicating that manufacturers that signed on would be barred from supplying software other than the Windows product. The company took quick steps to fix the agreement and never sent it out to manufacturers, as noted by the filing and U.S. Department of Justice attorneys at Wednesday's conference. This post was edited by gonzo on Saturday, September 16, 2006 at 00:15. |
| #8 By 17996 (66.235.19.95) at 9/16/2006 12:47:00 AM |
| #7 - Actually a slight correction regarding the media player exclusive license fiasco. From what I read, a proposal written by a relatively-new employee got circulated internally within Microsoft. Microsoft never had intentions to go forward with it. Your posting implies that MS had every intention to go with it, and only because of the Technical Committee (the "expert group") talking to the judge, did it get scrapped. This isn't true; the TC somehow found out about it way after it was scrapped; it didn't take an order from Kollar-Kotelly. She wasn't involved until after the fact. |
| #9 By 23443 (68.184.221.111) at 9/16/2006 8:23:41 AM |
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Latch,
How about this one? When you travel out of state, do you call up the states you will be driving/flying to, and request a copy of their laws so you can sit down and read them before travelling? Every state has different traffic laws. For example, in Illinois, you can be ticketed for staying in the passing lane too long on the Interstate if you aren't passing vehicles. Did you know that? There are no signs posted telling you that, and because of that, you probably would not get a ticket on your first offense, just a warning. Now I realize that MS has a huge legal team, and may have the time to read all of the EU's laws, but if they read through them, and don't see a problem with what they are doing, then it IS important for the EU to get more specific instead of just saying "We think you might do something wrong." Later, TowerDave |
| #10 By 37047 (70.25.214.139) at 9/16/2006 12:58:41 PM |
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I also feel that if the EU has a feeling that MS may violate some law, guideline, or whatever, then the EU should have the responsibility to inform MS of which guideline or law it thinks MS may be in violation of, or about to violate. The EU must have something particular in mind, even if only going by a general guideline. Therefore, they should at least be able to point the MS lawyers in the general direction of which guideline(s) they feel are in danger of being violated, so that MS can take corrective action.
Kind of like when you are driving, the speed limit signs are there to remind you of what the maximum speed is, so you know what is expected of you in that location, and you know that by exceeding that posted number, you will get fined. These are merely guidelines, provincially and municipally controlled. For example, the general guideline is 50 km/h (30 mph) on a residential street. However, the province or municipality can make that higher or lower, and the only notification you get is the sign post with the speed limit on it. If there is no posted speed limit sign, then the guidelines will tell you what you should expect the limit to be, and the judiciary should be able to point you to the appropriate guidelines where that is indicated. So, yes, MS has a responsibility to know the laws of the land, and the EU has a responsibility to assist in that endeavour by informing MS which laws, statutes, guidelines, etc., it is about to violate, or that they may be moving in the direction of violating. Something as simple as "check the guidelines in chapter x, section y, regarding speed limits, paying special attention to the sections regarding speed limits when no signs are posted." Ignorance of the law is no excuse, but if you ask someone who is in a position to know about that law, they should be able to tell you about it. |
| #11 By 23275 (68.17.42.38) at 9/16/2006 5:07:51 PM |
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The matter is quite simple - it is found repeatedly throughout legal texts, court rulings and public records - the words, "Public" law and "Common" law stipulate that laws are available for review, study and analysis. They must be published and that is the distinction.
Also, one being charged with a law violation is far from being convicted of one - the EU is skipping many steps and threatening continued and increasing punishments while side stepping any form of process at all. It's extortion and theft. It is frankly disgusting, and the EU's behavior should offend all people - most of all Europeans, whom should have a near immediate ability to recall previous abuses brought by their courts and states. It seems that people are blind and naive - driven I reason because Microsoft is both wealthy and American. This is about blunting Microsoft's power - blunting American economic power - blunting the power of an empire we never wanted in the first place. The EU visions itself as not just the equivalent of that power, but superior to it in every way - culturally, economically, and militarily. It is so base - they're still pissed we didn't restore their former colonies to them and we're too young to see what motivates them. Their sense is we don't deserve our success, or power - that some how we didn't earn it... failing of course to see that we didn't want it to begin with - we just wanted to be left alone and in peace and not be continually dragged into their murderous butchery. One should not see them as any different today - their thinking is too rooted in their own history and they can't help it. One has to see them in action in order to understand this - live there, work there and listen for yourself. They hate America and any company that reflects its power - in their eyes Microsoft does not deserve its market position - it stole it and it makes nothing of any real value that was not stolen and guys like Latch lap at the little bowl of skim milk they give him so he'll feel better about himself as he fools himself into thinking that he's better liked, or an "acceptable" American... Sorry Latch, they don't even hate you - not even that much respect would you be shown... of liberal Americans they harbor only contempt - "trying to be cosmopolitan and cultured - when they assess that is a state beyond our primitive ability to achieve" - that is how deep their hatred is for us. We just want people to like us - so foolish, culturally... We should just "be" and damn those that do not like it. I'd really like to see us stop all exports of all refined products for one month. We refine everything - others swim in crude oil, yet they have fuel shortages of every kind. It's hard to refine fuel - very hard and very costly. It's hard to refine anything and we're amazingly good at it. We're good at diverse operations, too - and the EU is terrible at it. We should keep that refined fuel here - the price of a gallon of gas would be about 20 cents inside a week. Then raise the price of refined products by 1000% - or as simply, keep the ships at home. I would love to see the EU lose access to the MS ecosystem forever. Lose access to America forever. They'd be butchering one another again inside a year. The most cultured of men become animals inside of two days in the bush. They reason away any shred of nobility just to stay alive another second. Put a poor American kid from a farm in Iowa, or the worst of inner cities in the same situation and he finds his nobility - it's an amazing transformation I've seen perhaps too many times. This isn't about the law at all - this is about an intense hatred of all things American and nothing more. Latch, I'd throw that bowl in their faces if I were you and pick a side. While true that we hose up many things, trust me, it could be a lot worse. |
| #12 By 12071 (124.168.25.204) at 9/17/2006 5:27:21 AM |
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#11 It's a good this the US of A would never do anything like that... you know, holding people in Guantanamo, without charging them, assuming guilt until being proven otherwise.... you know!
When you've stopped painting everyone in the EU with the same paintbrush (because we all know that they're all the same just like all Americans are the same!) maybe you can open your eyes up a little without resorting to the "they're jealous of us" bullshit. It's right up there with the "they hate our freedom" bullshit that the American Administration (note I didn't say American people!) came up with. "It seems that people are blind and naive" It's a good thing that there are no blind and naive Americans hey! "The EU visions itself as not just the equivalent of that power, but superior to it in every way" No, once again you're describing America right now - and throughout history you're describing basic human nature of "i must conquer all". "we just wanted to be left alone and in peace and not be continually dragged into their murderous butchery." This one is just pure brilliance on your part and goes hand in hand with the blind and naive comment you made earlier. If funny how you just want to be left alone - and yet here you are invading other countries, overturning democratically elected leaders and replacing them with your own, killing innocent people etc etc. I guess what you meant to say is that you want to be left alone to do whatever the hell you feel like doing in whatever part of the world you feel like doing it in! That is a sentiment that almost everyone on the globe would agree with. "They hate America" So does the middle east - actually, everyone hates America, everyone hates your "freedom" and your "way of life" - uh huh. Just keep repeating that to yourself and other over and over again. Sooner or later we'll all believe you, just look around at how many people are coming around to your way of thinking every single day in every part of the world! "I'd really like to see us stop all exports of all refined products for one month." Please do so! Get Nike, Disney and all your other corporations out of China, India and anywhere else where you're exploiting kids and adults alike paying them peanuts. Get your asses out of the middle east and anywhere else in the world rich with oil reserves and then let the rest of the world know when you're ready to start trading again. The arrogance has gone squarely to your head and I don't think you can even remember the day when you started talking and acting this way! "We should keep that refined fuel here" Sorry - can't have it all your way Mr Arrogant. If you stop exports then imports stop too. Good luck drilling for that oil in your country! The way you go through oil at the moment, your reserves aren't going to last very long! "The most cultured of men become animals inside of two days in the bush... Put a poor American kid from a farm in Iowa, or the worst of inner cities in the same situation and he finds his nobility" This is almost as brilliant as the point about not killing people! Maybe that's why the middle east hates America so much! It must be because you're all super humans with super dna that makes you better than everyone else in the world. I mean sure we all know about who the first Americans were and where they actually came from and we all know about evolution... but that's all bullshit - you're super people with God on your side! Wow I wish that everyone could be an American! I'm jealous that I'm not as American as you are - i really wish I was! I miss not being able ot feel superior to every other human being on the planet.... all non non-super people! The cult of America shall reign supreme! |
| #13 By 32132 (142.32.208.238) at 9/17/2006 8:46:39 PM |
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There is a big difference between Europe and the US. In Europe the Inquisition Style justice systems treats all citizens with contempt all the time, while Guantanamo Bay is an example of the US treating prisoners who would have been shot outright in previous wars (non-uniformed combatants have no rights) with more respect than Europeans treat their every day prisoners.
http://www.brugesgroup.com/news.live?article=156&keyword=10 "In Germany, France, Italy, Spain or Belgium, an investigating magistrate can hold someone without charge for questioning for quite long periods. Pressure thus builds on the detained person to strike a bargain with the prosecuting authority and concede guilt. Mr Strauss-Kahn, the former French Finance Minister, recently acquitted on charges of corruption, said: "In our system you are presumed innocent until declared guilty. The reality is you are seen as guilty from the moment the judicial system is interested in you"." "To the British mind, the idea of the investigating magistrate detaining someone for an indefinite period without charge simply for the purpose of investigation is at odds with the presumption of innocence; indeed, many people would call it outrageous" You are a dishonest hypocrite Kris. This post was edited by NotParker on Sunday, September 17, 2006 at 20:47. |
| #14 By 32132 (142.32.208.238) at 9/17/2006 8:50:36 PM |
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An example of what happens to non-uniformed combatants in WWII:
"Skorzeny successfully infiltrated a small part of his battalion of disguised, English-speaking Germans behind the Allied lines. Although they failed to take the vital bridges over the Meuse, the battalion's presence produced confusion out of all proportion to their military activities, and rumours spread like wildfire. Even General Patton was alarmed and, on December 17, described the situation to General Eisenhower as "Krauts... speaking perfect English... raising hell, cutting wires, turning road signs around, spooking whole divisions, and shoving a bulge into our defenses". Checkpoints were soon set up all over the Allied rear, greatly slowing the movement of soldiers and equipment. Military policemen drilled servicemen on things which every American was expected to know, such as the identity of Mickey Mouse's girlfriend, baseball scores, or the capital of Illinois. This latter question resulted in the brief detention of General Omar Bradley himself; although he gave the correct answer—Springfield—the GI who questioned him apparently believed that the capital was Chicago. The tightened security nonetheless made things harder for the German infiltrators, and some of them were captured. Even during interrogation they continued their goal of spreading disinformation; when asked about their mission, some of them claimed they had been told to go to Paris to either kill or capture General Eisenhower. Security around the general was greatly increased, and he was confined to his headquarters. Because these prisoners had been captured in American uniform they were later executed by firing squad; this was the standard practice of every army at the time, although it was left ambivalent under the Geneva Convention, which merely stated that soldiers had to wear uniforms that distinguished them as combatants." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Bulge |
| #15 By 12071 (203.185.215.144) at 9/17/2006 11:50:30 PM |
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#13 "There is a big difference between Europe and the US"
I never said that there weren't any fundamental differences, I'm just not painting everyone with the same paintbrush like lketchum (and yourself) like to do to try and feel superior to everyone else in the world. I guess I'm just not as arrogant as you - it's a character flaw I know! 'You are a dishonest hypocrite Kris" It's Chris - just how illiterate are you? #14 "this was the standard practice of every army at the time" I know the US arrived late to the party but surely they'd be party of "every army" as per your quote? It's not like it says every army except the US one! Perhaps that's when the US starting learning what they can and cannot do to prisoners... you know, like undress them and take photo's - those kind of kinky things that only the truly fu&*ed up get off on! This post was edited by chris_kabuki on Sunday, September 17, 2006 at 23:54. |
| #16 By 32132 (64.180.219.241) at 9/18/2006 2:44:18 AM |
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"I never said that there weren't any fundamental differences"
You weren't paying attention. In many countires of Europe, 100's of millions of average citizens are elegible to be treated worse than the Guantanamo prisoners because of the inherent Inquisition style of "justice". Maybe you heard of Nathan Hale: "Hale was captured on September 21. His notes and drawings were discovered hidden in his clothes; tragically, he had failed to use invisible ink, a technology available at the time. Forthright to the end, Hale admitted he was a Patriot soldier, an admission that sealed his fate. He had been out of uniform and operated behind enemy lines; under the existing rules of war he was subject to execution without trial. It should be noted that the British officers were especially uneasy about spies at this juncture because of recent fires that had ravaged the city and were thought to have been set by rebel agents. Hale was hanged the next morning and his body left on display as a warning to the community." http://home.u-s-history.com/pages/h550.html "you know, like undress them and take photo's " Oh how awful!!! Of course, I do believe the prisoners have a clearer idea of which is worse - panties on the head, or being in a prison without guards from the United States. "Some of the small number of prisoners who remained in the jail after the Americans left said they had pleaded to go with their departing captors, rather than be left in the hands of Iraqi guards. "The Americans were better than the Iraqis. They treated us better," said Khalid Alaani, who was held on suspicion of involvement in Sunni terrorism. The witness said that even in the thieves' section prisoners were being treated badly. "Someone was shouting 'Please help us, we want the human rights officers, we want the Americans to come back'," he said." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/09/10/wirq10.xml The real difference is that the MP's who committed crimes went to jail. The judges in Europe send people to jail for months without charging them with any crime ... in effect psychologically torturing a confession out of them. Its standard practice in Europe. |
| #17 By 12071 (124.168.25.204) at 9/18/2006 9:44:58 AM |
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#16 "Maybe you heard of Nathan Hale"
You went back 230 years to show us proof that the EU treats it's citizens worse than the Guantanamo prisoners? Are you honestly that mentally damaged? In 1776 Americans were hands deep in slavery - a lot changes in 230 years, although you were a little slow on the slavery and equals right thing! "Oh how awful!!!" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse - At least you have now answered my question regarding whether or not you really are that mentally damaged! Even the strongest supporters of the American Administration were horrified and disgusted at what went on. But hey, as you've told us - it wasn't that bad! 'Do you pray to Allah?' one asked. I said yes. They said, '[Expletive] you. And [expletive] him.' One of them said, 'You are not getting out of here health[y], you are getting out of here handicapped. And he said to me, 'Are you married?' I said, 'Yes.' They said, 'If your wife saw you like this, she will be disappointed.' One of them said, 'But if I saw her now she would not be disappointed now because I would rape her.'" [...] "They ordered me to thank Jesus that I'm alive." [...] "I said to him, 'I believe in Allah.' So he said, 'But I believe in torture and I will torture you.' - Senator Lindsey Graham (Republican, South Carolina): "The American public needs to understand we're talking about rape and murder here." - "It was pretty disgusting, not what you'd expect from Americans," said Senator Norm Coleman. - "I don't know how the hell these people got into our army," said Colorado Senator Ben Nighthorse Campbell. "Its standard practice in Europe." And it's standard practise in America to invade other countries, overturn democratically elected leaders and replace them with your own, kill innocent people etc etc. http://www.krysstal.com/democracy_whyusa01.html It's very comforting to know that many American's don't think the same way you and lketchum do and aren't as easily brainwashed by the media and the Administration into believing everything they tell you. |
| #18 By 32132 (64.180.219.241) at 9/18/2006 11:36:09 AM |
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"You went back 230 years to show us proof that the EU treats it's citizens worse than the Guantanamo prisoners?"
Your reading compreshension skills are really poor. I went back 230 years to show you that shooting combatants who are out of uniform have been standard practice for centuries for Europeans. I can come up with lots of other examples. Overthrowing the Taliban and Saddam Hussein horrifies Europeans because traditionally Europeans invade countries to enslave them as colonies. France regularly invades African countries to maintain them as client states. Naziism and Communism are also the standards in Europe. As is an inquisition style justice system. The EC's inquisition style attack on Microsoft is just the latest in a history of abusive, corrupt power grabs. |
| #19 By 16797 (142.46.227.65) at 9/18/2006 2:16:13 PM |
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"They hate America"
So does the middle east - actually, everyone hates America, everyone hates your "freedom" and your "way of life" - uh huh. Just keep repeating that to yourself and other over and over again. Sooner or later we'll all believe you, just look around at how many people are coming around to your way of thinking every single day in every part of the world! Do they hate USA in South Korea too? Do they hate USA in Kuwait too? Do they hate USA in Taiwan too? Do they hate USA in Kosova too? Do they hate USA in Bosnia too? Do they hate USA in Israel too? And, tell me, do they already hate USA in West Berlin? Did it take them less than 20 years to forget? Middle East? Yeah, they hate USA for supporting the *only* real democracy over there - Israel. You know, in Israel people can read any books they want to. And visit any web sites they want to, just like us. Unlike in those other countries that hate USA that you mentioned. Ohhh yes, Arabs hate USA and have warm and friendly relationship with EU -- you know, the same Europe that armed Israel with nuclear technology so that they can use it against them :) Yep, that's right. Great Britain and France agreed that Israel should provoke the war with Egypt and then they sent peacekeepers to Suez and effectively took control over it. In return, Israel got nuclear technology from them. How nice, especially for Egypt. But they hate USA, right? Yeah, they hate USA --- because it was USA and not EU that, in 1973, saved 2nd (or 3rd, can't remember) Egyptian army from certain destruction - around 50,000 men, if I remember correctly. Yeah, they hate USA because it was USA and not EU that stopped Isreal Army just some 60 miles before Cairo, when they crossed the Suez Canal into Egypt, in counter-attack. Eh.. This post was edited by gonzo on Monday, September 18, 2006 at 14:17. |
| #20 By 15406 (216.191.227.68) at 9/18/2006 4:44:26 PM |
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Man, I go away for a day or two and this is what I come back to?? Sheesh.
#5: I know it was over the top. In hindsight I should have picked a less reactionary example. #9: No I wouldn't read all of the state laws, but then I wouldn't whine like a bitch if I broke a law and got caught either. And MS has every right to read & interpret the laws, but the court has the final say. You would think, having gone through a multi-year antitrust trial, that MS would have a slight inkling about what constitutes an antitrust violation. It's not so different in the US and EU. MS demanding specificity is just a game to find the loophole. The EC isn't going to supply them with that loophole, just like the FCC won't tell you if something is obscene before you air it. |
| #21 By 32132 (64.180.219.241) at 9/18/2006 7:45:28 PM |
| #20 You would think, after bundling a media player with every OS since Windows 3.1, it wouldn't suddenly become a crime. But hey, the Inquisition kept people guessing too. |
| #22 By 23275 (68.17.42.38) at 9/18/2006 10:03:41 PM |
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To be fair... the Inquisition was a political party - and not a very popular one and not very successful, either. They has less reach than many assume - yet, they did have literate advocates who did record the history many of us have read. The real menace were the state governments who would, with the help of the Inquisition, establish courts on the fly and simply declare scores of people criminals - many crimes - all with the same punishment: death!
So it was essentially business [the church], working with small governments that as it suited them, would impose their will on the innocent - "The Infantum" - those without voice... were set upon and murdered by the thousands - to clear lands, reduce support for other nobles, or simply to terrorize and force compliance. The tools have changed - but nothing else - that is my point - no one is free and God help one that achieves anything independent of the state. A Microsoft is just not allowed - nor is a puny assed company like mine. #21's remark about the media player is an excellent example of what has taken palce for centuries - sooner or later they'll find something they do not like - declare it illegal and then the accused is done - out come the torches, racks and stakes. I mean, my gosh, look at the flogging select farmers took for growing carrots in France! You'd have thouht they had grown opium and were giving it to pre-schoolers.... the French hammered them and people died in riots all over western EU. |
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