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Secret Microsoft pacts leaked | |
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| Time: 12:02 EST/17:02 GMT | News Source: Seattle Times | Posted By: Robert Stein | ||
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Confidential agreements between Microsoft and two software companies in India were leaked to a Seattle labor group that's lobbying against overseas technology contracting. | ||
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| #1 By 7754 (216.160.8.41) at 6/16/2004 1:27:23 PM |
| Actually, this is the free market, and there's no reason to think that Americans are entitled to jobs or high wages. I know this is not the popular thing to say, nor is it easy to hear, but many American workers have become complacent and take their jobs for granted. In India (and elsewhere), you have many extremely bright, very highly-motivated people. Share the wealth. As a nation we have some work to do on our workforce and in our attitudes to compete in the future. |
| #2 By 7754 (216.160.8.41) at 6/16/2004 2:18:34 PM |
| Right, H1-B requires that no one local is willing or able to do the job. |
| #3 By 135 (209.180.28.6) at 6/16/2004 3:05:51 PM |
|
bluvg - A valid point.
However, these decisions have other costs involved, that our often overlooked by the decision makers. #1. Losing our edge in the creation of intellectual property. #2. Cutting down our own median incomes such that these companies looking for cheap wages no longer have a market to sell to. I'm more concerned with #1 than #2, but they are both concerns. If we are not creating jobs in high-tech such that we are motivating students to obtain degrees in college beneficial to that career... then long term we are going to be in a world of hurt. I'm a proponent of free trade, and I believe it's a good thing to work with these other countries because by boosting their economies we not only help to improve the lives of their people, but we also create new markets for our own products. It also goes back to the old Wilsonian argument that free market/free government nations are less prone to go to war with one another, because the instability impacts their economies, and since the people have a say, they say no. But I am still concerned, and I watch this closely. I don't think seeing a citizen backlash is a bad thing, as it keeps the decision in check and forces people to strongly consider the total consequences outside of their quarterly balance sheet. |
| #4 By 7754 (216.160.8.41) at 6/16/2004 6:44:09 PM |
|
That's true, Sodablue. At the same time, I don't think that we have a problem (at this point) with enough jobs (and high-paying ones at that) to motivate our students to pursuing those careers. For whatever reason, that isn't the type of motivation that is needed--the number of foreigners you see pursuing the hi-tech field is disproportionately high. It would be wise as a nation to encourage more of our own students to go into such fields, so that the national hi-tech industry will stay strong (and bring in more students, and so the cycle goes...). And thus I totally agree about #1--that is a huge concern. Once you lose the edge, it's hard to keep it from becoming a downward spiral.
I personally wonder if #2 is inevitable, and perhaps necessary. Or maybe the wages would stagnate while the rest of the world catches up. From the sounds of things, the job churn rate in India is quite high, and since the wages there are rising quickly, outsources are starting to look to other places (Romania, etc.). By simple supply and demand, one would imagine that wages here would tend to fall, and things would eventually even out (allowing for the savings of keeping things local). I don't really agree with citizen backlash--it's sounds like sort of mindless mob mentality, and is sort of arrogant towards other nations, which could hurt us in the long run. Of course no one here wants to lose jobs or hear about layoff after layoff, but reactionary isolationist measures could make things worse in the future. Change is constant, and we cannot be opposed to adaptation--if we are, we'll perish, so to speak. We risk becoming irrelevant if we don't adjust, because as the rest of the world jumps into the world economy, this trend won't stop just because we want it to or because we set up laws to attempt to stop it. |
| #5 By 135 (208.186.90.168) at 6/16/2004 7:30:57 PM |
|
bluvg - "I personally wonder if #2 is inevitable, and perhaps necessary. "
I hear the inevitable claim from many Republican friends, but what is always interesting is that they are never willing to volunteer to just give up 20% of their salary fo the good of the company or nation, it's only ok when it's someone elses wages. I believe that's a foolhardy claim, or goal. Rather we should strive to create good high paying jobs for as many as possible. A rising tide lifts all boats, as Clinton used to say. I call it the trickle-up theory of economics, which was obviously far more successful than trickle-down. "It would be wise as a nation to encourage more of our own students to go into such fields, so that the national hi-tech industry will stay strong" It largely is driven by job availability, and attitudes. We no longer value engineering and sciences in this nation, like we did shortly after WWII. "I don't really agree with citizen backlash--it's sounds like sort of mindless mob mentality, and is sort of arrogant towards other nations, which could hurt us in the long run." I don't agree with that, other nations are not going to be terribly concerned about our discussions and attitudes, and would more likely make concessions or adapt discussions to control the fear of change. Now if we start passing protectionist laws, like those bone-headed tariffs the Bush administration passed on Lumber and Steel imports, then we have a problem, but moreso because such moves are different from discussion, they shift things immediately and do not allow the market to adapt smoothly. The Steel tariffs ended up putting more Americans out of jobs than the jobs they supposedly saved, by unilaterally driving up price of supply to American companies. It's market adaptation which is really at issue here. If the change occurs over time, we can absorb the change. I don't believe it's a terrible concern right now, but that's largely because of the discussion and backlash which has occured in the media. "Change is constant, and we cannot be opposed to adaptation" One must also work to make people less fearful of change. That is why the social safety net is so important. That is why job retraining is so important. That is why diversification of industry within a metro area is so important. etc. etc. |
| #6 By 9589 (68.17.52.2) at 6/16/2004 11:42:56 PM |
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Ha Ha Ha Ha!!!! You OSS zealots go on and on about Microsoft hiring Indians at half the cost they are paying their American counterparts while at the same time touting software that costs "nothing". My hope is that you are also American programmers - dolts.
Meanwhile, we are paying programmers where I work less now then we did at the peak of the shortage in the first quarter of 2000 - and without a signing bonus to boot (with the exception of .Net programmers - they are still at a premium) Keep it up you OSS zealots - IS management across America is with you - just not for the same reasons that you think! lol |
| #7 By 23275 (68.17.42.38) at 6/17/2004 2:00:37 AM |
|
Hi,
I own and run a small company. It is a full service provider company. I wanted to provide perhaps a different perspective...It's pressing on 1 AM CDT and I am still working - about this time of night, as I roll through servers for clients, I take a break and read industry related news...most often to see what new threats have emerged - on occasion we get lucky and get a head start on some new one that might be particularly problematic...hopefully, the guys I have the extraordinary privilege of working with and leading are resting now, but I know some of them are still at it - perfecting one skill or another, or doing research on the lastest view state techniques in .NET. I wanted to share this, because not many moments go by that my mind is not on my crew...like a lot of guys like me that risked all we had to start a business...I probably worry too much...but not about money, or success...but about my crew. I call em "My Boyz" - even the ladies among them. Like very probably more than people would think, business owners think on them constantly - am I doing enough...creating enough opportunity...spending enough time with each...on matters that are important to them...their kids...sick parents...and of course...training, training and more training...constant exercises to challenge them and bind them closer to their goals...by now you're asking what in sam heck does this have to do with outsourcing....India...? etc... Well, a lot. See, far more often than we outsource, we hire people from all over...and almost always for reasons people have no clue about...we hire because we see a spark; a person that aspires to be the best they can be...and sometimes just some young kid who needs a good job...a feeling comes over one that I can hardly describe...feelings to protect, or insulate people from what we have endured. It does not matter who they are, or where they come from, either. I've hired a guy form India...had no idea what he could do or not do...he just said he wanted to be an American...I hired him on the spot, gave him some cash and a cup of <bad> coffee and started to train him. He's among the best assets I have. I guess the point I am trying make is this, don't sweat what Microsoft or any company does..."just drive your own car" Just do something that matters to you and get to know what it feels like to want to do something great...people will always hire that...reward it and worry most of the time about how you are doing. If you own a business, and sneak a lot of extra pay onto each check every two weeks - just because you want one of them to be able to do something special, or buy that new widget...you'll likely already know what I was taught so many years ago..."Just love your men." It's that simple...and how could you not...guys that hammer away at complex tasks for days on end without rest, or decent food...men that work to make solutions as perfect as can be...just because they know that their names, written or not, are on it. If you're sincere about it, they'll know it, and monetary success will be a simple by-product of doing it the best it can be done. Don't sweat what others do, or do not do...just do what is right...and do it like it matters. Oh, one last thing...always lead from the front...be the first to heft a server into place, and the last to lock your workstation...and do it that way everyday. As you grow, the Boyz you led will do the same for their men and nothing can compete with that. Thanks. |
| #8 By 19992 (164.214.4.61) at 6/17/2004 8:53:22 AM |
| So MS is accepting code contributions from India in a more large scale fashion than previously reported. I wonder when GHS will deliver a report stating that Microsoft is unfit for national security because of foreign code contributers? |
| #9 By 13030 (198.22.121.120) at 6/17/2004 10:57:25 AM |
|
A favorite topic of mine. MS is doing what any lumbering giant corporate entity does when it's starting to lose its edge: cut expenses. When your revenue and the innovation that drives new revenue is showing signs of stagnating you must cut expenses. The problem is that foreign outsourcing appears to be a quick and easy fix, but it will hurt a company more in the long term.
Software development is an art in which the quality and viability of the product produced is determined by the skills, experience, motivation, and innovation of the individuals involved. Software, while it may be trending toward commodity status, is not built in the traditional commodity fashion. Attempts to componentize software development have always met with little or no success, and that is exactly what will keep it firmly as a talent-based profession. It is this critical distinction that executives making outsourcing decisions don't understand. They believe that a software developer is an interchangeable cog in the corporate wheel--that a foreign software developer costing a fraction of what a domestic software developer costs is going to lead to reduced expenses with comparable output. Companies that make these type of decisions will reap what they have sown. I have seen it happen many times. I believe that I will remain comfortably employed in software development for as long as I chose since my skills and experience offer employers a competitive edge, especially over those that outsource. |
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