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"Evil" Linux Must Be Stopped From Compromising U.S. Defense, Says O'Dowd | |
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| Time: 21:13 EST/02:13 GMT | News Source: Linux World | Posted By: Brian Kvalheim | ||
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In what already looks like being a very busy week for Linux sensationalism, the CEO of Green Hills Software continues his unashamedly self-serving series of Linux security "white papers" - "It is not too late to prevent Linux from compromising national security," he writes, pretty much as usual. "So far, Linux has only been deployed in a few defense systems, but its use in the development of new defense systems is spreading rapidly. That is why we must act now." With such emotive writing, it is hardly surprising that O'Dowd's recommendation is that the US turns instead to his own company's OS. | ||
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| #1 By 135 (209.180.28.6) at 5/18/2004 10:27:41 AM |
| What's not mentioned here is that Linux zealots make the same false claims about the competition and think that is reasonable discourse. |
| #2 By 19992 (164.214.4.61) at 5/18/2004 10:38:48 AM |
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Soda,
What false claims are you referring to? I'm not sure I've ever heard a Linux zealot claim that Windows was unsuitable for defense use or that Windows was wide open for terrorists to submit code contributions. |
| #3 By 6859 (206.156.242.39) at 5/18/2004 12:14:13 PM |
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Demonizing Linux isn't going to help. MS needs to make Linux appear to be the wrong solution at every turn based on usability, stability, and features. When one demonizes something, the target has a nasty habit of gaining underdog supporters just because of the hate.
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| #4 By 19992 (164.214.4.61) at 5/18/2004 12:16:05 PM |
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baarod
I'd probably fall into the latter category. I don't recall the US Navy story you linked to, I do remember the NSA story though, I don't remember that being something that OSS zealots trumpeting all over the place (but that could be my memory failing there). However, Backdoors have been installed in Windows before by the USG. Read O'Dowds paper for a brief summary of how modified versions of Windows were shipped to the USSR and were responsible for the explosions of the Trans-Siberian Pipeline. As far as whether O'Dowd is correct in his assertations of the suitability of Linux in defense applications, I would have to agree with his statements that Linux is not qualified for military embedded systems. Unfortunately, he seems to go off on tangents wholly unrelated to the purported topic of his papers. As far as a code review is concerned, it's something that every OS vendor would need to perform before they would be legitimately eligable for the programs that O'Dowd is talking about (Windows, UNIX, Linux, OSX, etc). This post was edited by happyguy on Tuesday, May 18, 2004 at 12:19. |
| #5 By 135 (209.180.28.6) at 5/18/2004 1:02:15 PM |
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happyguy - "Read O'Dowds paper for a brief summary of how modified versions of Windows were shipped to the USSR and were responsible for the explosions of the Trans-Siberian Pipeline. "
I'm looking over this paragraph in O'Dowds paper, which mentions this. http://www.ghs.com/linux/threat.html And I see no mention of Windows in relationship to the Trans-Siberian pipeline explosion. I was already aware of this bit of historical factoid as it was revealed in Thomas Reed's book, and mentioned in Richard Clarke's book. Personally I think it's quite creative, and good out of the box thinking on the part of the NSA. Anyway, just thought it interesting how first you deny Linux zealots make shit up, and then you go off and make shit up. Actually reading O'Dowd's paper, it's really quite reasonable and intelligently written, unlike the piece at LinuxWorld. In fact the Linuxworld response is filled with a series of debate fallacies. One of the primary being that we should disregard O'Dowd's paper because he is trying to sell something. The second being that because Linus responded to a different issue on who invented Linux, this proves that the issues raised by O'Dowd are equally invalid. |
| #6 By 135 (209.180.28.6) at 5/18/2004 2:32:17 PM |
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ClosedStandards - I'm curious how much longer you can keep up this facade with a straight face.
Gotta admit, you certainly have patience. |
| #7 By 3653 (63.162.177.143) at 5/18/2004 4:00:18 PM |
| sodablue - don't confuse PATIENCE with a general LACK OF LIFE and anything better to do. |
| #8 By 7797 (63.76.44.88) at 5/18/2004 5:06:07 PM |
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"What's not mentioned here is that Linux zealots...."
Zealot is Zealot no matter what side of the fence they sit. Thats what the problem is. The unabated continuous praisal of anything Microsoft and bashing of anything Linux or open source by people like sodablue and parkker shows which side of the zealotry they are on. Funny thing is although they are completely right about Linux zealots, they don't realize they are precisely the same way. Except on the opposite side |
| #9 By 7797 (64.244.109.161) at 5/18/2004 11:25:55 PM |
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"Microsoft zealots tell the truth about Linux. And it really, really annoys the OSS fanboys."
Keep telling yourself that. Maybe one day it will become true. |
| #10 By 135 (208.186.90.168) at 5/19/2004 12:35:20 AM |
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tgnb - "The unabated continuous praisal of anything Microsoft and bashing of anything Linux or open source by people like sodablue and parkker shows which side of the zealotry they are on. "
Hmm, you won't see unabated continuous praisal of anything Microsoft from me. Now you will see bashing of Linux and open source, but that's only because the Linux zealots are over represented and they need to be balanced out. |
| #11 By 19992 (164.214.4.32) at 5/19/2004 7:34:28 AM |
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Sodablue - First I never claimed that Linux zealots 'never made shit up'. Second, inclusion of Windows was a mistake on my part. You need to calm down and stop assuming the worst about people.
baarod - thanks for pointing out my error :) parrker - nevermind, you aren't worth it. This post was edited by happyguy on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 at 07:52. |
| #12 By 3653 (63.162.177.143) at 5/19/2004 10:23:20 AM |
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msucks, your motivations are oh so thinly veiled. To take down the mighty, arrogant Americans.
Best of luck friend. I do find it odd though. I draw a parallel between your thoughts and the way the Japanese automakers were set to take over the auto market from the mighty, arrogant Americans. I was too young to remember, but were there "japanese auto zealots" similar to today's OSS zealots? Either way, we all know what happened. The Japanese automakers tanked thanks to an economic system that could not sustain them. And the mighty, arrogant Americans bought (you can claim "merge", partnered with, but "bought" is the reality) the Japanese automakers. That "revolution" never happened, and neither will the OSS "revolution". I'm not saying a better system, than America, can't be created. But I am saying that the level of freedom in American forms a basis for great things (including the continued dominance of American automakers, and Microsoft). We have a few less freedoms every year here, but that seems to be the trend in most countries. This post was edited by mooresa56 on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 at 10:27. |
| #13 By 135 (209.180.28.6) at 5/19/2004 10:48:42 AM |
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mooresa56 - Uhh, kind of a bad example. The American automakers gave up on the car market, and let the Japanese take over. Japan is still dominant today, with Honda and Toyota most especially.
Today the US automakers still build crap. It's better crap than it was in the 1970s, but it's still crap compared to the competition. GM has declined in marketshare from 50+% down to under 20%. They're very likely to lose even more marketshare here in the next few years, as they had diverted all of their efforts into building trucks, and now with gas prices at $2/gallon and likely to stay there, the market is going to shift back to smaller vehicles which don't consume gas. They don't have anything worth buying in that category. Same mistake they made in the 1970s. Ford and Dodge are slightly better setup for the market shift, but they have other problems. No, that situation is totally different from the Linux guys. Honestly I view the Linux guys as being more the pro-American Muscle car people lamenting that cars have gotten more complicated and harder to maintain. Meanwhile I'm buying my new Microsoft built BMW of software, and cruising with style down the information super highway. |
| #14 By 19992 (164.214.4.61) at 5/19/2004 10:52:55 AM |
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#21 What Japanese car companies other than Mazda have been purchased by American companies?
#22 Dodge is not an American car company. It's german, they were purchased by Daimler a few years ago. |
| #15 By 12071 (203.217.26.226) at 5/19/2004 11:19:52 AM |
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#16 "When people claim Linux is free, I point out that 65% of the Linux market is held by RedHat and SUSE - neither of which is free."
Here we go again, more FUD from the MS machine. Which RedHat did you mean? The last version of RedHat was 9.0, this can be downloaded for free (as in speech and beer) here: ftp://ftp.redhat.com/pub/redhat/linux/9/en/os/i386/ Maybe you meant the newest "RedHat" which is Fedora and can be downloaded for free (as in speech and beer) here: http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/core/2/i386/iso/ Or perhaps you meant RedHat Enterprise, in which case v3.0 can be downloaded for free (as in speech and beer) here: ftp://ftp.redhat.com/pub/redhat/linux/enterprise/3/en/os/i386/SRPMS/ All the patches, updates and bug fixes can also be downloaded for free (as in speech and beer) here: RedHat v9.0: ftp://ftp.redhat.com/pub/redhat/linux/updates/9/en/os/i386/ Fedora: http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/core/updates/ RedHat Enterprise v3.0 AS: ftp://ftp.redhat.com/pub/redhat/linux/updates/enterprise/3AS/en/os/SRPMS RedHat Enterprise v3.0 ES: ftp://ftp.redhat.com/pub/redhat/linux/updates/enterprise/3ES/en/os/SRPMS RedHat Enterprise v3.0 PW: ftp://ftp.redhat.com/pub/redhat/linux/updates/enterprise/3PW/en/os/SRPMS RedHat Enterprise v3.0 WS: ftp://ftp.redhat.com/pub/redhat/linux/updates/enterprise/3WS/en/os/SRPMS *Note: RedHat Enterprise only includes the source code, rather than the pre-built binaries, so you will have to compile it yourself, however that doesn't change the fact that you CAN get it for free. The only things not included are any commerical products included and support. However you can download cAos' CentOS-3 (see below) saving you the time to compile all the source code. **Note: I've just provided links to the latest versions, you can download all the previous versions as well as the versions for other platforms as well. ***Note: You can save yourself time and effort by using up2date or yum or apt to get all the updates for you =) SUSE v9.0 and v9.1 can be downloaded for free (as in speech and beer) here: ftp://ftp.suse.com/pub/suse/i386/ (under 9.0 and 9.1) SUSE v9.0 and v9.1 Live Evaluation can be downloaded for free (as in speech and beer) here: ftp://ftp.suse.com/pub/suse/i386/ under (live-eval-9.0 and live-cd-9.1) All the patches, updates and bug fixes can also be downloaded for free (as in speech and beer) here: http://www.suse.com/us/private/download/updates/90_i386.html http://www.suse.com/us/private/download/updates/91_i386.html or ftp://ftp.suse.com/pub/suse/i386/update/ (under 9.0 and 9.1) Some other distributions of Linux such as Debian, Slackware, Gentoo, Mandrake, Knoppix, Yellow Dog, cAos etc etc can all be downloaded for free (as in speech and beer) in similar ways! If anyone is wondering cAos linux (http://caosity.org/) is "an enterprise level distribution rebuilt from Red Hat Enterprise Linux source RPMs. The release [CentOS-3.1] includes all security updates for RHEL released by 18th March. Updates should be available within hours after released on the RHEL Eratta page. CentOS-3 also now includes the RHEL documentation, both on the CDs (CD3/docs) and also on the mirrors in the 3.1/docs/ directory". This means that if you want RedHat Enterprise v3, including all the latest patches and updates and you don't want to compile it yourself... you're in luck! All that work has been done for you! Enjoy! No amount of FUD from the MS camp will change the fact that Linux is FREE! This post was edited by chris_kabuki on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 at 11:28. |
| #16 By 7797 (63.76.44.84) at 5/19/2004 11:35:59 AM |
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chris_kabuki i could not have pointed it out better than that.
Regardless as we are dealing with zealots it won't matter. They will continue in their blinded path no matter what. "Now you will see bashing of Linux and open source, but that's only because the Linux zealots are over represented and they need to be balanced out." Some of those Linux zealots would argue the exact opposite: "Yeah, I bash Microsoft, but its only because the MS zealots are over represented and need to be balanced out." You could take the high road and STOP bashing Linux, but I doubt that will happen because youre no better than those Linux zealots who can't stop bashing Microsoft (for whatever their reasons are). This post was edited by tgnb on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 at 11:42. |
| #17 By 135 (209.180.28.6) at 5/19/2004 3:13:02 PM |
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tgnb - "You could take the high road and STOP bashing Linux, but I doubt that will happen because youre no better than those Linux zealots who can't stop bashing Microsoft (for whatever their reasons are)."
Well I stopped reading slashdot, and started reading activewin instead. That certainly improved my perception of the linux community, when I stopped reading the garbage. Now odd thing, I came here expecting to get Windows news, and that's for the most part what I get. But there's also a bunch of trolls here who think they're going to convert me to the world of Linux. How about instead of bashing Windows all the time, you engage in a debate and we can talk about all the cool stuff we're doing today with Windows? I also want to make a point of differentiating the open source community from linux, because they aren't one in the same. Most of the good open source software out there these days doesn't run on Linux, it's written in .NET and runs on Windows. :-) |
| #18 By 135 (209.180.28.6) at 5/19/2004 3:14:18 PM |
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#23 - Good point, Dodge is now Daimler and they've both gone downhill since.
kabuki - "No amount of FUD from the MS camp will change the fact that Linux is FREE!" Only in the way a Puppy is free. You still have to feed it, take it out for walks and replace the furniture. |
| #19 By 3653 (63.162.177.143) at 5/19/2004 6:27:31 PM |
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As someone already mentioned, Ford owns Mazda.
GM owns Suzuki, Subaru, and Isuzu (I *think* those were all Japanese at one point) Ok, good point about Chrysler not being American owned anymore (although at the time of the buy-out, Chrysler shareholders represented >40% of outstanding shares). My point is... when it was truly an American automaker, they took a major ownership position in Mitsubishi. So, Japan still has Toyota and Honda only. I would say American automakers buying 5 out of 7 Japanese automakers strengthens my points a bit. And actually, if you consider that Honda and Toyota haven't purchased ?any? other automakers, compared with Ford/GM buying Volvo, Jaguar, Land Rover, Aston Martin, Saab, and most of Fiat (all of these were non American owned 10 years ago)... I think my case is pretty solid. This post was edited by mooresa56 on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 at 18:29. |
| #20 By 12071 (203.185.215.149) at 5/19/2004 9:27:28 PM |
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#26 "Most of the good open source software out there these days doesn't run on Linux, it's written in .NET and runs on Windows. :-)"
What "most" open source software are you referring to that is written in .NET and runs on Windows? Most of the good OSS runs on both Windows and Linux (and Mac usually). #27 "Only in the way a Puppy is free. You still have to feed it, take it out for walks and replace the furniture." Which is what you have to do with Windows and every other OS out there.... what's your point? It doesn't change the FACT that Linux is FREE, it's the MS zealots that claim that it is not. |
| #21 By 9589 (68.17.52.2) at 5/20/2004 2:12:27 AM |
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#22 - GM's market share stood at 28.3 at the end of 2002. Ford's market share stood at 20 at the end of 2002.
The most popular car with an average transaction price under $12,500 is the Chevrolet Cavalier, with about 17 percent of that market segment. Number 2 is the Ford Focus, with about 12 percent of the segment, according to final sales price data from the Power Information Network (PIN), a J.D. Power affiliate. Japanese automakers have about 29 percent of the overall market. By the way, I own a Ford Cobra SVT. It is just one heck of a car to drive (and very little on the highway can get past it!). I put in a lot of hours at work and it is a real pleasure to get behind the wheel of it to go home in the evening. I've never owned a foreign car. My other "car" is a Chevy pickup truck to haul our horses. Well now, where were we . . . Oh, yeah . . . Linux sucks! lol |
| #22 By 7797 (63.76.44.87) at 5/20/2004 9:08:57 AM |
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"But there's also a bunch of trolls here who think they're going to convert me to the world of Linux."
I bet you can't point out a single post on Activewin where someone tries to convert you. I also bet that most if not all "trolls" you speak of here on Activewin use and work with both Windows and Linux and other OS's. What makes you a zealot is that you're not only attacking linux zealots but also those who happen to find a use in either OS without hating one or the other. This post was edited by tgnb on Thursday, May 20, 2004 at 09:13. |
| #23 By 135 (209.180.28.6) at 5/20/2004 11:44:05 AM |
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mooresa56 - "GM owns Suzuki, Subaru, and Isuzu "
Nope. GM has stakes in those companies, the greatest being the 49% share of Isuzu, the others are less than 20%. Now GM did buy some factories over in China from Daihatsu I think(?), and they're doing quite well in the Chinese market. GM does own Saab outright, and they have the Vauxhall, Opel and Holden labels in Europe and Australia. I'm not sure what your point really is, you seemed to be claiming that people who bought Japanese cars were crazy. How you've proven that is beyond my expertise. jdhawk - One has to be careful with "most popular" car numbers. The Cavalier, Malibu, Taurus and others are primarily sold to rental fleets. That's because the cars are cheep and being in a fleet they only have to last a year or two to get their money out of them. The most popular car amongst those consumers who are purchasing for themselves is the Civic, Accord and Camry. I drive a BMW 3-series these days. In the past I've owned Infiniti, Acura, Dodge, Pontiac, Chevy and I had a brief but disasterous flirtation with a '78 Ford Mustang. The SVT line from Ford is nice, but some day you should test drive a BMW, perhaps an M3. :-) |
| #24 By 135 (209.180.28.6) at 5/20/2004 11:45:01 AM |
| tgnb - Who says I hate Linux? I just think it's being oversold as the solution for all things. |
| #25 By 7797 (63.76.44.87) at 5/20/2004 12:32:41 PM |
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"Who says I hate Linux? I just think it's being oversold as the solution for all things."
I bet you can't point out one post on Activewin where someone oversells Linux as the sloution for all things! Just like you cant poiunt out a single post on Activewin where someone tries to convert you to linux. Who says you hate Linux? I didnt say that. But let people judge for themselves based on your past comments: The sodablue Hall of Shame: "This is the catch-22 of Linux. There's no technical reason to use it, it's solely about the fact that it's free." "No, I'm saying Linux is a piece of crap." "Keep in mind that for Redhat to become profitable, they had to move away from the GPL and adopt a proprietary subscription/support model." "Because Linux is K-K00l RAD333ZZZZ!" "Linux versions are so boring, they offer no new innovations or any real features that people would care about. Just not worth upgrading to." "Granted, my main issue with Linux is it's old technology and not very fun to work with." "It's funny, but actually Linux is too bloated to be used for embedded devices." "Linux which is motivated entirely from hatred of Microsoft products" "OSS development is cheaper... partly true, but since it's unreliable and slower you position yourself with a competitive disadvantage." "The large problem is really that most open source zealots do not have any understanding of the computer world." "The US should start investigating on whether Linux exists because of illegal dumping by foreign companies." "most GPL code is of dubius quality" "I don't have a problem with Linux but I do have a problem with the community's general lack of respect for other peoples work." |
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