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Complaint: RealNetworks Inc. v. Microsoft Corp. (PDF) | |
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| Time: 20:33 EST/01:33 GMT | News Source: CNET | Posted By: Brian Kvalheim | ||
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<%=GetPoll(83)%> The streaming media provider sues Microsoft, accusing the software giant of illegally using its Windows monopoly to limit consumer choice in digital media | ||
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| #1 By 37 (68.185.170.82) at 12/19/2003 12:33:58 PM |
| Here we go again! |
| #2 By 931 (65.81.128.200) at 12/19/2003 3:31:22 PM |
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this fight is about nothing but real's inablity to make a profit.
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| #3 By 37 (64.109.31.106) at 12/19/2003 7:30:04 PM |
| While I am on your page Tail, the problem is that "supposedly" the consumer won't make a decision to try another player because there is already one there for them. That is the complaint. Real ASSUMES people are lazy and they won't bother with trying anything else because they already have what they need for free. |
| #4 By 3339 (64.160.58.135) at 12/19/2003 8:17:32 PM |
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Come on, Brian, the complaint goes a lot further than that. They state that MS is pricing their standalone media systems at zero or below cost and are thus engaged in predatory pricing. They are arguing that MS ties WMP to Windows in ways which are unnecessary (particularly on the streaming serer end). They argue that MS encourages content producers, content developers, OEMs, ISVs that WM is the only universal format on Windows, and that they say to these partners that other media options cannot be properly supported. They argue that MS has, in dealing with PC manufacturers, precluded them from: removing or changing the status of WMP, promoting RealOne on a new PC, preloading music files in any format besides wma/wmv, making any other player the default player, assigning most formats to any player besides WMP, giving RealOne placement in the Start menu, allowing Real to maintain configured format assignments, installing media players as startup apps, providing a desktop icon for Real, or a link to Real's web site. They charge that even if another media player and is capable of playing the content and is assigned to play the format that WMP will overrride this selection. That WMP has an artificial ubiquity that is necessary in achieving dominance. That Microsoft has changed technology when Real has removed or overcome incompatibilities. That Microsoft has failed to disclose APIs on a timely or nondiscriminatory basis, if at all.
To name a FEW of the complaints. This post was edited by sodajerk on Friday, December 19, 2003 at 20:18. |
| #5 By 37 (64.109.31.106) at 12/19/2003 10:36:39 PM |
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All of which are FUD, lies and pure BS.
"They state that MS is pricing their standalone media systems at zero or below cost and are thus engaged in predatory pricing." What on earth are you talking about? "They are arguing that MS ties WMP to Windows in ways which are unnecessary (particularly on the streaming serer end)." In THEIR eyes maybe. I would say the same thing if my business was suffering a huge blow. WMP *is* what appears to be the new standard today as it is bundled with Windows. I am glad for that, especially since it's a great player and it's free. "They argue that MS encourages content producers, content developers, OEMs, ISVs that WM is the only universal format on Windows, and that they say to these partners that other media options cannot be properly supported." Nothing wrong with that. NOTHING. Note "encourages". I would do the same. It's called selling your product. And no, they can't be properly supported by Microsoft. "They argue that MS has, in dealing with PC manufacturers, precluded them from: removing or changing the status of WMP, promoting RealOne on a new PC, preloading music files in any format besides wma/wmv, making any other player the default player, assigning most formats to any player besides WMP, giving RealOne placement in the Start menu, allowing Real to maintain configured format assignments, installing media players as startup apps, providing a desktop icon for Real, or a link to Real's web site. They charge that even if another media player and is capable of playing the content and is assigned to play the format that WMP will overrride this selection." That is a bold face lie. Setting program and access defaults over ride this. Secondly, Microsoft is NOT precluding them from ANY of the above. The complaints are FUD. Real is pissed because they are losing ground, losing money (apparently), have spyware for a player and lost the market saturation. There is nothing stopping them from having there media players preinstalled on OEM machines. We just bought a dell system that came LOADED with 3rd party applications, jukebox this, wordperfect that, AOL this, Roxio that. TONS of preloaded OEM applications. But I am pretty damn sure REAL will get caught in their lies pretty damn soon. |
| #6 By 37 (64.109.31.106) at 12/19/2003 10:48:17 PM |
| Locke, thanks for all the research. You read my mind! |
| #7 By 37 (64.109.31.106) at 12/19/2003 11:16:33 PM |
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"Real 12.5% (1 votes) "
I see Sodajerk got his vote in ;-P |
| #8 By 61 (65.32.171.138) at 12/20/2003 3:02:09 AM |
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Didn't Real, and many other Microsoft competitors, try to put a halt on XP shipments before it was launched because of WMP, and didn't that fail?
The simple reality is people dispise Real Player. It's a heap of bloated junk that installs a bunch of BS on your computer, even if you tell it not to, and tries to take over your system. I do not know anyone of sane mind that actually chooses to use Real Player over other media apps. |
| #9 By 8589 (66.169.174.102) at 12/20/2003 5:02:35 PM |
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This is absurd. I use RealOne MediaPlayer, but I purchased 2 versions of Real Player Plus, versions 4, and 8. I also purchased 2 versions of Real Jukebox Plus 1 and 2. But I am forced to use RealOne Player, and I don't want to buy it at 10.00 a month, that is incredibly stupid.
But I do have to have RealOne as I enjoy watching movies online for free, and the site I go to, has the free movies in RealOne format. <sigh> |
| #10 By 1845 (67.161.212.73) at 12/20/2003 9:06:21 PM |
| #18, Either that's equivalent to include a can of Coke with every case of Pepsi, or it's equivalent to Set Program Access and Defaults, which we already have. |
| #11 By 1845 (67.161.212.73) at 12/20/2003 9:07:05 PM |
| Hmm, how are you going to be preseented with a web page of choices, when you don't have a browser to render that web page? |
| #12 By 135 (208.186.90.91) at 12/20/2003 11:37:29 PM |
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Honestly, after having fought with WMV, MPEG, MOV, RM and other formats, I think it would be preferable to adopt a single video standard.
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| #13 By 1845 (67.161.212.73) at 12/20/2003 11:43:37 PM |
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J, you make no sense. If Microsoft is required to include 3rd party competing products, it's the equiv of mandating that Coke include cans of Pepsi.
No, that isn't the whole problem. In fact, there is no problem. There is a whining company that can't compete on its own merits. But regarding SPA&D, OEMs can set whatever they want. Very simple, not problem. Embedded IE? Um, you have to have IE installed for that option to work, which counters your argument. |
| #14 By 1845 (67.161.212.73) at 12/21/2003 12:20:08 AM |
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Whether one product requires Windows or not has nothing at all to do with what is installed at startup. The fact is, if you require a company to include a competing product, this is the same as requiring a can of Coke in every case of Pepsi. It doesn't matter whether one depends on the other. It's a matter of including the competitors offerings in your product.
Regarding IE, your solution is amusing, because it requires IE. If Windows had no browser, your solution wouldn't work. However, the fact that Windows has a browser, is the thing that upsets you. Nice paradox. |
| #15 By 16797 (24.100.199.196) at 12/21/2003 1:20:15 AM |
| BobSmith, it's not the same. Microsoft has the monopoly over desktop market while you can't say the same for Coke. |
| #16 By 1845 (67.161.212.73) at 12/21/2003 2:08:00 AM |
| Except that Real is also available for Linux, UNIX, Mac, and even mobile phones. |
| #17 By 1845 (67.161.212.73) at 12/21/2003 4:21:26 AM |
| Then the settlement comes into play. |
| #18 By 135 (208.186.90.91) at 12/21/2003 11:10:03 AM |
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Real should create a plugin codec for Windows Media Player which allowed it to play Real Video content.
Then they could offer this to Microsoft to include for free. That'd be more desirable than trying to force their spyware on people. |
| #19 By 16797 (24.100.199.196) at 12/21/2003 12:13:23 PM |
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BobSmith, yeah, I see your point - the settlement does come into play. Still, earlier this year, Microsoft paid around $700 M to AOL Time Warrner (IE vs Netscape Navigator thing) to end the case. IMHO, Real is looking for the same. Maybe.
MS' monopoly is not necessairly the bad thing, but, clearly, MS is using monopoly in one area (desktop OS market) to crush the competition in other areas (web browsers, instant messengers, media players). Is this legal? I honestly can't tell for sure, but I think that it is illegal to use monopoly in one area to gain monopoly in other. Bottom line, it is very hard to tell what should and what shouldn't be the part of the OS itself. These days, people expect a decent browser, media player, etc, to be there when you install OS, so I can't blame MS. Maybe Real should work harder with companies like Dell to make sure Real Player is there too. Just for the record, I don't like Real Player at all :-) |
| #20 By 16797 (24.100.199.196) at 12/21/2003 3:25:26 PM |
| Yeah, but then, why did MS pay $700 M to AOL-Time Warrner earlier this year? It was off-court settlement, wasn't it? As I said, Real is (probably) looking for something like that. Justified? Not sure, but since MS paid AOL-TW, I can't tell that it is not. For companies like Netscape (and maybe Real too), the settlement has come a bit too late I'd say. |
| #21 By 1845 (67.161.212.73) at 12/21/2003 6:47:03 PM |
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The AOLTW (now just TW) Microsoft settlement is interesting. First, it covers far more than a private anti-trust case. It covers the AOL division of TW to use IE in the AOL client. It covers, IIRC, the use of WMP and Windows Media Server for AOL subscribers. It also, IIRC, talks about a compatible IM network between MSN/Windows Messenger and AIM.
So, the settlement covers more than the browser war. Also, the browser war, from Netscape's persepective, was far different than the media player sparring match. Some differences: When Netscape came to the market, there was no browser from Microsoft. When Progressive/Real cam to the market, Microsoft had included a media player in Windows for several years. IE was trying to win market share back from Navigator/Communicator. WMP already had the market share before RealPlayer existed. An NS plugin for IE probably wouldn't have helped NS out too much. A Real plugin for WMP would make Real just as much cash as they get now with their player. Netscape fell over and played dead when IE was included in Windows. Real fought like heck even though WMP was in Windows. It achieved majority marketshare dispite WMP being in Windows. There are many incriminating statements from Microsoft execs about killing NS, cutting off its air supply, etc. So far as I'm aware, there are no such statements regarding Real. NS and Microsoft have never had any business connection. Real's CEO and founder is a former Microsoft executive, of Microsoft media technology no less. he knew what he was getting into. As I see it, Real's case is very, very weak. Their statements about OEM restrictions aren't true and haven't been for many years. When Microsoft was strongarming OEMs, Real was included in Windows, so that's a non-issue. Most of Real's issues are addressed via SPA&D. Any issues not covered there are covered elsewhere in the settlement agreement. They should appeal to Judge Kolar-Kottely rather than take this private route. Just my thoughts. I'm not a lawyer and I certainly don't know what has gone on behind closed doors at either company. It's just my hunch that Real is full of it and that this will further harm their reputation in the tech industry. |
| #22 By 9589 (66.57.146.201) at 12/21/2003 8:39:00 PM |
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I simply will not install RP on any of my computers. If a web site has content and they only offer RP to view it with, I just move on.
RP is insanely intrusive. The funny diatribe "dissing" RP that was posted a few days ago was right on the mark. Also, RP has to realize that the "good 'ole days" of everyone hating Microsoft have past with the exception of a few fanatics. This lawsuit was simply to play to the EU in an attempt to side with the ABMers. Sorry; it isn't going to work. |
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