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Microsoft looking for growth in too many places, investors say | |
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| Time: 12:10 EST/17:10 GMT | News Source: Bloomberg | Posted By: Todd Richardson | ||
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Richard Doherty, an independent consumer-electronics analyst who visited Japanese stores in October, traced his initials in the dust on a box containing Microsoft Corp.'s Xbox video-game machine. When he returned 45 days later, the box and his initials were still there. "It was sad," Seaford, New York-based Doherty said. Chief Executive Steve Ballmer and Chairman Bill Gates have unveiled tablet computers, watches, key chains and refrigerator magnets that remotely access data in the last four months. Investors are concerned those products also may sit unsold on store shelves. The new products may never boost sales the way Windows and Office programs did, investors and analysts said. Microsoft should be pickier, and use some of its more than $40 billion in cash and securities to pay a dividend after the stock fell 22 percent last year, investors said. | ||
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| #1 By 135 (209.180.28.6) at 1/16/2003 1:42:31 PM |
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"visited Japanese stores in October"
Well no kidding... Japan isn't like America. Where we ignore the "Made in the USA" stickers, they do not ignore "Made in Japan". If it's made by a Japanese company, they'll buy it, even if it is inferior to other available foreign goods. It is a difficult market to crack, and I think Microsoft didn't understand that. |
| #2 By 3339 (65.198.47.10) at 1/16/2003 1:49:36 PM |
| That's a pathetic and racist excuse, soda. What OS do most Japanese run? Windows What culture do the Japanese love to eat up? America's They are such an isolationist nation that it takes 50 days to sell a single product when there are hundreds of them on the shelf? Tell that to Nokia |
| #3 By 3339 (65.198.47.10) at 1/16/2003 2:14:06 PM |
| uhh, kevin, they pull in about 2 billion in INCOME each quarter too. If they were sued by every single state, they could pay every single state off in 6.5 years without dipping into the cash reserves. Do you think that MS could drag out these HYPOTHETICAL lawsuits for 6 years and do you think they really pay up front and in one lump sum? And realistically, the settlement may cost MS a half bill or less. |
| #4 By 3653 (63.162.177.140) at 1/16/2003 2:25:36 PM |
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kevinu, be aware that 40% of affected users are within that California settlement. So, that $1.1B only turns into $2.75B when you add the other states, IF the other states get that sweet a deal (and they won't). Also, $1.1B is misleading. The actual number will be less than $800M. I think the $1B in PROFIT they make each and every month will be enough to cover that.
jerk, what sodajerk said is not racist. Have you been to Japan? I have, many times, and I can tell you that sodablue is exactly right. I don't fault the Japanese with that mentality, because it makes a lot of sense for them. But its not wrong to point out the way things are. You shove your own head into the sand all you want, but stop short of slandering others that choose to see the world realistically. |
| #5 By 3339 (65.198.47.10) at 1/16/2003 2:35:53 PM |
| Yes, I have been to Japan. Everything has English written all over it--even if they don't udnerstand. They love it. They love referencing American culture and ideals. They love American movies and music. Especially hip hop. They love talking to Americans. They love the cool (let's repeat COOL) American products. Saying Japanese only buy Japanese products is racist and a pathetic excuse for not selling a single dusty XBox in over a month. Plan and simple. |
| #6 By 1845 (12.209.152.69) at 1/16/2003 3:07:15 PM |
| OT: Jerk, have you seen sale figures for PS2? I'm wondering which of us was correct in our prediction. |
| #7 By 3339 (65.198.47.10) at 1/16/2003 3:11:35 PM |
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Yeah, Bob. I already had the guys post the story, but they only posted to the XBox section. I was dead on.
PS2 hit 50 million. And it's even worse. Check out the projections that Nintendo and MS have supplied. MS will only have 2/3 of Nintendo's marketshare 3 months after Nintendo will hit its projected mark. Ha, ha, ha. |
| #8 By 7754 (216.160.8.41) at 1/16/2003 4:30:24 PM |
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I have lots of Japanese friends, Sodajerk, and that really isn't how they look at America (nor how they say other Japanese look at America). They think that Americans (and other Westerners) are typically rude, and they certainly don't embrace our ideals. For example, respect for elders is almost forgotten in our society, whereas it is a cornerstone there. Humility is a virtue there, where it is hardly mentioned in our culture. American movies and music are somewhat exceptional in their acceptance, and that's mostly true worldwide. Connecting their listening to American music and their purchasing other American goods has as much to do with Americans listening to British music having an impact on Americans purchasing other British goods. Cell phones are also exceptional there... so much so that the use of them has reached almost epidemic proportions. It is a real concern there that it is causing a great deal of trouble among Japanese youth.
True or not, I can hardly see why saying that Japanese buy Japanese products is racist--it's simply not a racist statement. Nothing is mentioned about race at all. On the other hand, Japanese typically do not have the same feelings about racism that we do here--it is quite common to hear unabashed racist sentiments there (although some of them stem from issues that have little to do with race). At any rate, your statements have very little to do with why Japanese are not buying the XBox. |
| #9 By 3339 (65.198.47.10) at 1/16/2003 4:38:47 PM |
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bluvg, I'm aware of the attitudes you are expressing as well, but that's not the point. I do not see why they cannot have their own values and still have a hunger for American consumerism. I didn't suggest they were abandoning their values for ours. My point was to suggest that their consumption habits are not nationally determined and they will buy what they like, and rabidly so.
To make a stereotypical argument based on race or nationality is a racist remark. I don't know why you say: "At any rate, your statements have very little to do with why Japanese are not buying the XBox." No sh!t. What I said, has to do with soda's statement having little to do with why Japanese are not buying XBox. Does Nokia do a fair bit of business in Japan? How so--they don't buy anything that's not Japanese. And blaming poor sales on the Japanese also doesn't have anything to do with MS entering a market that it wasn't prepared to handle, either, does it? The fact is: if MS wanted to be successful in this market, they needed to be successful in Japan. They haven't been. They didn't do their work properly... They didn't understand the market, didn't create the right device for the market, didn't market it right, didn't create games for the market, etc... So they are failing. To excuse MS's failure by saying, "what can you expect from the Japanese"is a racist comment. This post was edited by sodajerk on Thursday, January 16, 2003 at 16:44. |
| #10 By 3339 (65.198.47.10) at 1/16/2003 5:32:51 PM |
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That's pretty pathetic, parker. Who are his clients? Does having clients mean you are never independent? That you are never telling the truth? Does it really matter when 80% of the story isn't about the XBox is presents fairly hard numbers?
Come on, stop being pathetic and suck it up. |
| #11 By 135 (209.180.28.6) at 1/16/2003 5:33:07 PM |
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Jerky Boy - "That's a pathetic and racist excuse, soda."
What? What's racist about what I said? Take a look at a variety of markets... foodgoods, automobiles, photography, consumer electronics, so on... You will see dramatically different marketshare figures in Japan versus United States. In most markets the US consumers are far more willing to buy imported goods than the Japanese are. The entire country just holds different values as far as deciding what to purchase. You can't just go in there with a better product you have to have something new, unique and exciting. Only then can you break the nationalist tendencies and penetrate markets. It seems to me that once again in your blind hatred of Microsoft you are willing to stick your head in the sand rather than face reality. |
| #12 By 3339 (65.198.47.10) at 1/16/2003 5:36:56 PM |
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soda, you are getting really bad at this. You pick four markets that Japan excels at--so of course you see more Americans buying those products and not vice versa. The whole god damn world would show the same thing.
"You can't just go in there with a better product you have to have something new, unique and exciting. Only then can you break the nationalist tendencies and penetrate markets." Only when? A new, unique, exciting product can or can't succeed in Japan? If you say it can, I agree. The XBox is a horrible failure in Japan because it is not new, uniwue, or exciting, yes. It seems to me you are once again trying to use pathetic excuses to cover for Microsoft's failure. |
| #13 By 3339 (65.198.47.10) at 1/16/2003 5:38:49 PM |
| Wow, parker. And Woz has absolutely nothing to do with a competitor to the XBox! Well, I'll be damned! Jesus, you are pathetic. Woz doesn't even have anything to do with Apple, nevermind Sony or Nintendo. |
| #14 By 7754 (216.160.8.41) at 1/16/2003 5:54:38 PM |
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No way. Essentially, your argument is that saying that a country is isolationist is racist. That is not even remotely racist. "Racist" is an extremely loaded word, and I'm rather tired of people using it improperly and indiscriminately.
Why do I say "At any rate, your statements have very little to do with why Japanese are not buying the XBox"? Because presumably, you are refuting Sodablue's comments that the Japanese do not ignore "made in Japan"--his suggestion for slow sales of the XBox in Japan. Pointing out their hunger for Nokia cell phones, American music, American movies, etc., are not satisfactory explanations. Cell phones are a whole other topic, and your bringing up Nokia is a red herring. Nokia is a status symbol throughout that part of the world, and cell phones (as I mentioned) are a cultural phenomenon over there. Pick another example, please. You need far more than one to demonstrate your point. Japan has a well-documented history of isolationism both pre- and post-war, and whether or not their national policies change, it has become a part of their national consciousness. |
| #15 By 3339 (65.198.47.10) at 1/16/2003 5:54:42 PM |
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Jesus Christ, parker, he likes Apple still--he did found the company. He hasn't worked for them in ages. He came to his first MacWorld in years just last week. And besides, what the hell does Apple have to do with the XBox?
Wait, why am I asking, I take that back. I forgot how idiotic you can be. You'll be going on and on for months about how this reporter made this up because he's secretly controlled by Woz who is secretly controlled by Apple who is secretly trying to damage the Xbox for who knows what reason--maybe they're trying to be acquired by Sony, right? Whatever, parker. |
| #16 By 3339 (65.198.47.10) at 1/16/2003 5:58:27 PM |
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bluvg, how is Nokia a red herring? There are plenty of fine, even better Japanese and Asian phone makers. How bout we say Ericsson then? Or Motorola?
"Because presumably, you are refuting Sodablue's comments that the Japanese do not ignore "made in Japan"--his suggestion for slow sales of the XBox in Japan." I have. In the case of cellphones, this isn't true. Plain and simple. Saying they are isolationist is one thing, saying the only reason the product is a failure is due to the Japanese people is another. |
| #17 By 7754 (216.160.8.41) at 1/16/2003 6:11:43 PM |
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Nokia is a status symbol everywhere in Asia, not just Japan. There, cell phones are more like clothes--you buy the brand because it's what everyone else has.
Even if the example of cell phones was a good one, you really don't believe one example is going to back up a claim that Japanese don't have strong feelings against buying non-Japanese brands, do you? You always make fun of the reasoning ability of other people in these forums... yours isn't always so hot, either. I don't think Sodablue singles out Japanese isolationism as the sole reason for the current failure of XBox in Japan, but it is still a very big factor in any US product introduced over there. |
| #18 By 3339 (65.198.47.10) at 1/16/2003 6:30:19 PM |
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bluvg, what is this status symbol claim? Please 'splain. Why isn't the XBox a status symbol? It's more expensive, it's more "powerful", it's bigger, why can't it be a status symbol?
Another example--clothing. There is a lot of great Japanese clothing boutiques and designer clothing. But still American and European brands are a hot item. They certainly wouldn't get dusty sitting on the shelf. Anyway, what is the point about quibbling--XBox is a failure in Japan, and it's unknown if it will ever make money. It is getting crushed worldwide. The TabletPC buzz died as soon as it was released. Media PCs are useless at this point and probably for another year or two. SPOT watches are a complete joke. Isn't this the point of the article. That MS is desperate for new markets which are not panning out. No one has refuted that yet. |
| #19 By 7754 (216.160.8.41) at 1/16/2003 6:50:56 PM |
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Sodajerk, it's not "status symbol" in the sense of price or ability, but in the sense of it's the cell phone to have. You can't become a status symbol by creating a better (or even the best) product. It usually happens through of a number of right-place-at-the-right-time events, and very often has little to do with the manufacturer's efforts.
I do agree generally with your last statements, though--XBox is a failure in Japan, and obviously it is unknown if it will ever make money (certainly not as a console--the profits are in the games, of course). But, for the XBox, TabletPC, Media PC, etc., it's very, very early to tell where these are going to go. SPOT watches may be a joke, but the technology on the whole might find fertile ground elsewhere. Media PCs may be a predecessor to later media convergence in the home. TabletPC is going to be a slow-growth product, and MS acknowledges that. They are reaching out for new markets, some would argue haphazardly--and I think there's some truth to that--but MS knows that some will bear fruit, some will not, and only time will tell. You can't fault them for attempting to create new technology that might benefit people. Does anyone (seriously) have better ideas that they might pursue? |
| #20 By 3339 (65.198.47.10) at 1/16/2003 7:04:13 PM |
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"Sodajerk, it's not "status symbol" in the sense of price or ability, but in the sense of it's the cell phone to have. You can't become a status symbol by creating a better (or even the best) product. It usually happens through of a number of right-place-at-the-right-time events, and very often has little to do with the manufacturer's efforts."
Right, but you are saying, Nokia doesn't count as a success because it's a status symbol. I'm saying XBox is a complete failure so will never be a status symbol. You haven't explained how when a Scandanavian company enters the isolationist market that is Japan, becomes a huge success, so much so that everyone wants one and it's a status symbol, that it doesn't show that Japan will always put national products ahead of foreign ones. How can you dismiss that? If the XBox was hugely successful and a status symbol, would you say that it's not an example of an American product succeedign in Japan? If they had marketed correctly or through a quirk in design, it caught on. I just don't understand that ridiculous dismissal. |
| #21 By 7754 (216.160.8.41) at 1/16/2003 7:52:08 PM |
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Sodajerk, who said that Japan will always put national products ahead of foreign ones? Isolationism doesn't imply walled borders--it's a major tendency, but not a rule. And I don't think Microsoft's goal was to make the XBox a status symbol--that's a goal most businesses generally don't pursue, because the majority of factors are completely beyond their control. Nokia became a status symbol, they didn't make themselves into one. If you have the method for becoming a status symbol, please share. Of course neither one of us have it, though, and that's why we're here arguing over this instead of heading up several hugely successful corporations.
Nokia's success as a status symbol has a lot to do with the product they're selling--a cell phone. People are seen (out in public) with their cell phone, and it becomes more or less a fashion accessory in addition to its communication purposes--very similar to clothes in that respect. The XBox is very limited in its potential as a fashion accessory. ;) (And of course, I'm not saying that it would succeed as a fashion accessory! But hopefully you understand what I'm saying....) My point is that the success of Nokia was an exception, and it is not a satisfactory example. If you could point to a general trend of successes of American products in Japan, that would be a completely different story. The truth is that you can point to a very significant trend toward the failure of American products in Japan. Again, very few businesses go into a market (especially a low-margin market) with the assumption that their product will become a status symbol/phenomenon. |
| #22 By 7754 (216.160.8.41) at 1/16/2003 8:54:20 PM |
| Baiting the hook again, eh, nomdlev? Maybe try being a little less subtle next time. ;) |
| #23 By 135 (208.50.206.187) at 1/16/2003 10:09:02 PM |
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jerky boy - "soda, you are getting really bad at this."
Hmm, don't think so... you accused me of saying something racist when I accused Japan of being Nationalistic. Obviously you don't understand what the words mean. I'm pretty certain you owe me an apology on that one. "Anyway, what is the point about quibbling--XBox is a failure in Japan, and it's unknown if it will ever make money. It is getting crushed worldwide. " So you agree that Apple is not just a failure, but their Macintosh line is a colossal failure seeing as how it has only achieved a 2% marketshare penetration. Colossal failure may not even be a strong enough word.... Let's instead say that there has been no greater marketing failure in the history of mankind... even the Titantic was a greater success than the Macintosh because it at least achieved half of it's stated goals. This post was edited by sodablue on Thursday, January 16, 2003 at 22:09. |
| #24 By 7754 (216.160.8.41) at 1/17/2003 10:34:32 AM |
| Good luck with that apology, Sodablue.... :) |
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