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Time:
15:27 EST/20:27 GMT | News Source:
eWeek |
Posted By: Andre Da Costa |
Vista has turned into the desktop operating system no one wants, and even Microsoft is beginning to get it. Today, I think of Vista as the zombie operating system. It stumbles around, and from a distance you might think it's alive, but close up it's the walking dead.
The first sign that Vista was in real trouble was when major vendors started to offer XP again on new machines. In February, Microsoft insisted it had already sold more than 20 million copies of Windows Vista. Oh yeah, like there were actually 20 million copies of Vista already out there and running. Pull the other leg, it's got bells on.
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#26 By
37047 (74.101.157.125)
at
9/29/2007 11:35:43 AM
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Has anyone here EVER had a good experience on a Microsoft OS installed on what they decide is the minimal system required to run an OS? The minimum XP recommendation was crap too, as you will all recall. It ran, but not well. I know, because my parents had a system that was close to the minimal recommendation, and it was slow and sluggish, and painful to use. They upgraded the hardware, and it worked much better. The same sort of thing is probably happening with Vista.
Many press people are probably not going out and buying brand-spanking new hardware, just so they can do a review of the OS. They will use an existing machine that meets the requirements, even if minimally. To get better reviews, someone should send some of the reviewers some loaner systems, pre-installed and pre-configured to a spec that lketchum would create for his customers, with all the latest hardware and driver revisions, and let them do a review based on that configuration. After all, everyone here mostly agrees that the drivers for things like nVidia and AMD / ATI video cards that shipped with Vista sucked, and that both companies have much better drivers now than they did 7 months ago. So, why let reviewers use a system with 7 month old drivers on a 2 year old card? And just dropping the hardware on them without some sort of "here's how the new OS works", "here's how to use the new features", etc., informational sessions would also degrade the quality of the review. I partially blame Microsoft for this, because no matter what you like or dislike about them, no one can say that Microsoft does not know how to do PR and marketing well. It is one of their key strengths. So, all the bad reviews either mean that Vista is really bad on less than stellar hardware, or Microsoft is dropping the marketing ball on this one.
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#27 By
12071 (124.171.8.155)
at
9/29/2007 12:23:36 PM
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#20 "chris_kabuki, I think you are telling pure lies. If you are running Vista on specs like that, it has to be running great unless the processor is a 133 Pentium!"
No problem, let me know what specs you'd like to know, any configurations, log files etc and I'll freely present them all to you. I can take screenshots of it all too if you really like because... Vista really does run like a dog! I'm not the only one out there with legitimate concerns. For the record I'm running Vista on a P4 3.0GHz cpu, 2 GB Corsair 3200 XMS memory, Radeon 9700 Pro, Creative Audigy 2, 4 HDD, 2 DVD burners, Pinnacle Video Capture Card on a Gigabyte IK-1100 motherboard (Antec case and powersupply) plus a Netgear 108Mbps wireless card with the following ratings:
CPU - 4.2
Compression & Encryption - 4.2
Video Encoding - 4.3
Memory speed and size - 4.5
Desktop graphics - 5.1
Gaming graphics - 4.3
Hard disk - 5.3
Total Startup Time - 199.654 sec
Time to Desktop - 97.454 sec
Kernel Startup - 0.034 sec
Driver Startup - 4.108 sec
Device Startup - 8.075 sec
Explorer Startup - 64.135 sec
...
"Maybe its your brain thats thinking its slow when its actually fast."
Maybe I just haven't been drinking the kool-aid for long enough! Honestly, stop making moronic comments, it's not helping your case.
"Have you applied the recent performance updates?"
Yes. All patches have been applied, latest drivers installed - as mentioned before the only thing I can really think of is that it just cannot handle being upgraded from XP... or... perhaps it really is as bad as I see it.
"As for my defense of Vista and Windows, go over to OSNews or Slashdot and say something negative about Open Source or Linux and get ready for the backlash."
Umm, yeah... you're right... there's no backlash here with people calling each other names etc all because Microsoft was criticized...
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#28 By
1896 (68.153.171.248)
at
9/29/2007 1:29:03 PM
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#22: You know what I found really fun and ironic too about your post? I was a MS beta tester for ME and since the first Alpha builds I never, never experienced the problems that basically 99% of the users had. Sure I had some BSOD, memory issues etc. but I was using Alpha and Beta builds. Once ME RTMed it worked just fine, at least for me. :-)
#25: I could not agree more with your statement both in general terms and especially with the distinguo about the characters that animate this board.
Overall I keep believing that MS should make two different OSes:
One for their new love: big corporations with very conservative GUI etc.
One for enthusiastic people that should be really futuristic, with no more windows, pie menus or whatever and charge a Premium for it exactly as Alienware and NVidia do with their respective top of the line hardware.
Personally I do not think they should even create this "Geek OS" from scratch, just commercialized all the things the R&D Department show every once in a while but almost never, at least not as they were presented, get on the shelves.
With a solution like this I would be happy not once but twice: as a user and as a shareholder.
This post was edited by Fritzly on Saturday, September 29, 2007 at 18:09.
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#29 By
9589 (71.49.188.113)
at
9/29/2007 2:35:58 PM
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It always cute to hear a *nix geek tell Windows users their OS is crap. Of course, I dare these people to fire up their favorite *nix computer and pass it over to Ma, Pa or even worse Grandma. What a hoot or a disaster that would be - depending on your perspective!
Meanwhile, I work in a Fortune 50 company with over 100,000 employees. We have a SA license with MS. The license allows us to use either XP or Vista interchangebly. Nevertheless, we have moved very slowly each time a new MS OS has come out. The main reason is that it takes some time to get a large organization up to speed. Meanwhile, IT teams or busy learning the OS, producing images for hardware, and most importantly, testing applications against the new OS. And, this is the most time consuming aspect of it. I would estimate that about 1/3 of our application vendors simply do not have a Vista build at this time and will not have one until the first of next year. And, with several thousand applications being used across lines of business that range from retail banking, to floor trading, to insurance it is a lengthly undertaking.
Heck, most of the company still uses IE 6.0 instead of IE 7.0. Again, the reason is that some of the web-based applications that our vendors have supplied to us will not work yet on IE 7.0.
So far as numbers of Vista based computers out there, I would estimate that it is closing on 60 or 70 million. With a PC unit run this year of 180-200 million, Vista is on track to exceed 100 million copies by year end.
These are numbers that *unix on the desktop has never even dreamed of and would still not be approached if you added up all the Mac based OSs through the years. Sorry . . .
What did Linus tell us not long ago . . . *unix is not now and may never be ready for the desktop PC! Of course, he probably didn't understand the power of the scribblers to make it so even if it is only in their minds.
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#30 By
37047 (74.101.157.125)
at
9/29/2007 4:38:01 PM
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It will be interesting, and perhaps funny, to see what people are writing about, and complaining about, in 5 or so years when the next big desktop OS from Microsoft comes out. The one to replace Vista. How many of us will be complaining about how few apps run on the new OS, or driver issues, or whatnot, and commenting on how there is no reason to upgrade, because we are happy with Vista, and see no reason to upgrade to the new and unproven OS. I fully expect to be among them. By then, I will be running Vista Service Pack 2 or greater, have everything tweaked, and be happy with it, and likely see no reason to rush to upgrade to the post-Vista OS.
In my own defence, I did rush out and get XP as soon as it was available, as the reasons to upgrade from Win2K to WinXP were quite obvious and significant. However, I did have the same driver issues that people are now experiencing with Vista. I had no performance issues, though, as the same machine ran XP quite well.
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#31 By
2231 (72.5.151.4)
at
9/29/2007 4:56:26 PM
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Microsoft still has not convinced the corporate world of the benefits of Vista.
I support Dell hardware and when users or management ask "when are we getting these new products" it's very easy to answer "How is it going to increase revenue or reduce expenses?"
Unless Microsoft can help answer those questions, XP will be around for a very long time.
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#32 By
32313 (208.131.186.18)
at
9/29/2007 8:16:14 PM
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schwit, thats because some of the lazy IT fools are not explaining the value proposition to their CIO. If they did they would understand the amazing benefits of Vista alone to prep for it. Then again, I might be wrong, since I said earlier that most IT departments don't upgrade on a whim. Vista offers significant value in areas such as easier deployment, the new Enterprise SKU supports numerous languages for multi-national institutions like Governments and Banks. Stronger security through UAC and Bitlocker, including the improved Group Policy which makes it easy to lock down devices on the network.
Windows Collaboration makes it easier to setup meetings, no one has to waste time leaving their office or cubicle to gather in a conference room. If you do have to do presentations, Vista makes it easier to setup your system with a projector. Support for 64-bit systems is now mainstream which means workstations can go beyond the 4GB bottleneck performance and maintain compatibility to a certain degree. Better diagnostic tools for networking, better Help and Support (Guided Help), improved backup which makes it easy to restore systems. Ability to search productively across networks and locally and just plain much easier to use.
chris_kabuki, you are nothing but a moronic liar, you are not running Vista, you are telling lies. You just want to give the OS a bad name.
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#33 By
11888 (67.71.155.61)
at
9/29/2007 8:29:47 PM
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Wow.
AW Network people - you cannot possibly allow awandre to continue to be part of AW. Calling people "a moronic liar" is unacceptable.
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#34 By
12071 (124.171.8.155)
at
9/29/2007 10:02:45 PM
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#32 "chris_kabuki, you are nothing but a moronic liar, you are not running Vista, you are telling lies. You just want to give the OS a bad name."
Yes parkkker. As I said, let me know what will convince you, I'm happy to provide it just to shut the real liars up on this site that will say anything they can to try and convince people there's no problems with Vista (hint: look in the mirror).
#33 They will allow it and quite frankly they don't care. If it had been an anti-Microsoft person who said it then it would have been a different story. That's fine, that's what's expected from those of us who have been here for long enough. Soon you'll have the rest of the pro-Microsoft camp (hopefully with their leader lketchum) come to support awandre like they do with parkkker in almost exactly the same scenarios.
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#35 By
1896 (68.153.171.248)
at
9/29/2007 11:09:14 PM
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"I disapprove of what you say, but will defend to the death your right to say it"
It is not mine, of course. (-:
It is a statement made by a philosopher I greatly admire:
François-Marie Arouet de Voltaire.
33/34: People who engage themselves in vicious and personal attacks only offer a further proof of the lack of better arguments to corroborate their opinions. Nothing more effective that just ignore them to stigmatize their weakness.
Let us calm down... there is a week-end out there.
This post was edited by Fritzly on Saturday, September 29, 2007 at 23:22.
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#36 By
23275 (71.12.191.230)
at
9/30/2007 12:23:07 AM
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#34, Chris, don't be confused about my role at all. I am just like you all. I have zero say about what goes on here. I'm just an unpaid volunteer, trying to support a community I like. Whatever resources I provide, or have provided are provided freely and without attachment of any kind - the same terms as for the many other activities we support - some in even greater ways. I have no influence here and set no policy and most importantly, I don't ask for it. I and my guys simply help - and that applies equally for all people who come here - so the help is as much intended for you, as it is for the guys that run this site.
Parkker, to my knowledge, has no admin, or leader role, but he does often speak with authority and present arguments that are solid. So do you, ch, and mystic. Latch, I just can't figure out, but I think his role is as a counter-balance to the power MS has... or something like that. While I don't agree with him, or even his methods, I do respect that he takes a stand and certainly his right to say what he wishes. It takes some courage to step into any conflict.
Personally, I try not to use baseless attacks - being human, I mess up on occasion. Not good, but it happens. It is to be expected when people are passionate about things. I do think that people should be allowed to say what they want. I know a lot of men a great deal better than I will ever be, that gave a lot more than I have to ensure people have a right to do that. So right, or wrong, mean, or kind... it all has to be allowed. That's just my opinion and on this site, mine carries no more weight than your own.
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#37 By
23275 (71.12.191.230)
at
9/30/2007 12:59:31 AM
|
Here's a prediction... Windows Vista SP1 will be delayed by at least a few months.
Microsoft has been around a long time. They will be around for a lot longer.
They realize that their competitors are paying big money to those writing about our industry to trash Vista in every way possible.
Microsoft is not about to allow them to win. Despite a service pack being completely unnecessary, Microsoft will issue a beaut of an SP - as in massively complete. They are going to ensure that they smash critics with a sledge hammer and leave them no technical room left to base further criticism of their OS.
A few people have pissed off their leaders in the past.
I think a lot of people have pissed their engineers off and in large numbers.
I say this because our news has been so flat - Microsoft just isn't saying a whole lot these days.
Now, I ask, what happens when that many truly brilliant people, armed with so many resources become angry?
Winston Churchill said it best: "They'll grind them into powder."
Good. I like the idea of a very motivated and pissed off Microsoft. I can't wait to see what they will do.
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#38 By
17996 (66.235.42.86)
at
9/30/2007 4:14:56 AM
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#37 - delaying SP1 (further than it has already been delayed) is quite unlikely to happen, because that would mean delaying Server 2008 as well. (Remember, the two are one and the same.)
#32/34 - I don't linger on these forums enough to know whether chris_kabuki is not even using Vista. However, post #27 would indicate that he isn't. Take a look at the performance numbers. I don't know about you, but I've never seen "Compression & Encryption" and "Video Encoding" as categories listed on the performance screen. Chris, where did these numbers come from? I'd love to see the screenshot of it that you're offering us.
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#39 By
11888 (67.71.155.61)
at
9/30/2007 9:42:41 AM
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#37, I agree that people should be able to say what they want but would expect someone who represents this forum to show professionalism by taking the time to form their argument with tact. If they can't, I would expect them to be asked to make the comments from outside the inner circle.
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#40 By
37047 (74.101.157.125)
at
9/30/2007 10:47:38 AM
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#38: I don't linger on these forums enough to know whether chris_kabuki is not even using Vista. However, post #27 would indicate that he isn't.
How do you come to that conclusion, when he clearly states: "For the record I'm running Vista on a P4 3.0GHz cpu, 2 GB Corsair 3200 XMS memory, Radeon 9700 Pro, Creative Audigy 2, 4 HDD, 2 DVD burners, Pinnacle Video Capture Card on a Gigabyte IK-1100 motherboard (Antec case and powersupply) plus a Netgear 108Mbps wireless card"? He quite clearly indicates that he is running Vista, and further in his post, he indicates that it was an upgrade install from XP.
#39: awandre claims "chris_kabuki, you are nothing but a moronic liar, you are not running Vista, you are telling lies. You just want to give the OS a bad name.", and states this as though it is a fact. Not even a single bit of proof, other than his say so. It is for this reason that I put the likes of awandre, NotParker, moorsea56, ch, and a few others into the category of wasted space. lketchum may be a Microsoft fanboy (in the good sense), but at least he will give actual reasoned out arguments for why he believes what he does, more than the other fanboyz (in the negative sense). These fanboyz should simply be ignored, as Fritzly has indicated. That is certainly the approach I try to take most of the time, even though I occasionally slip into pissed off mode myself, and sling an insult or two back at the fanboyz from time to time.
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#41 By
37047 (74.101.157.125)
at
9/30/2007 10:54:02 AM
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#36: Latch, I just can't figure out, but I think his role is as a counter-balance to the power MS has... or something like that.
Latch is not all that hard to figure out. He likes and uses some of their technology, but he has issues with how they act as a corporate entity, especially towards other companies, the industry as a whole, and their willingness to break any rule in order to maintain their monopolistic lock on the OS and office suite businesses, and any other they decide they want to own. Competing based on the quality of their offerings would be fine, but they use their monopoly position and deep pockets to threaten and coerce their way into getting whatever they want, and that is simply wrong. When the fanboy contingent takes the "they are Microsoft, so they should be allowed to do whatever they want" approach, he, I, and a few others of us rail against that. It is no more complex than that. For proof of the malfeasance of what Microsoft has done most recently, have a look at the current attempts by them to get OOXML fast tracked as an ISO standard, by any means necessary, such as committee stacking, vote buying, etc. They are attempting to completely co-opt the entire process. Fortunately, it has not succeeded thus far in winning them the fast track, but they are no less guilty for making the attempt.
The entire process can be viewed at: http://www.noooxml.org/
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#42 By
37047 (74.101.157.125)
at
9/30/2007 10:57:02 AM
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Lloyd: Here is another suggestion for the new AW. For both of our sakes, I think the board needs to have a longer posting length. The current length seems to be too short for when you or I get off on a rant, and we have to start splitting our messages into multiple posts. It would also help if a better error message were returned than the SQL type error message that one gets, which is cryptic at best, and completely unintelligible for those who are not used to them, and can't figure out what they are being told.
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#43 By
20505 (216.102.144.11)
at
9/30/2007 12:00:20 PM
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Mystic,
Did it ever once occur to you that the reason that you have a functional desktop computer at all is that MS monopolized the market?
Before MS it was IBM. Apple did the same thing only less successfully.
MS ended up in its unique position because it was supporting so many different types of hardware.
Computers require someone to set the World Wide Rules - if not it is chaos.
Only a paradigm shift can change this - and it will...when computers become an appliance that run remote apps on distant servers through big pipes.
This requires only one advance in technology faster and cheaper data services, then - Google will be giving away PCs for free.
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#44 By
12071 (124.171.8.155)
at
9/30/2007 12:06:59 PM
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#38 "However, post #27 would indicate that he isn't."
All the performance figures specified are from an application called "Tweak Vista" from Stardock. Whilst that particular application doesn't honestly offer any really useful features, it does do one very simple thing quite well. It summarizes all the information that Vista logs itself (accessible via the Reliability & Performance Monitoring tool) and presents it all in a very simple overview format. I just ran an updated assessment just for you...
http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/image.php?727bab0450.png
http://server6.theimagehosting.com/image.php?img=tweakvista1.png
If you want the screen shots of the "Start Up" pages showing you how long it took for each component to start up, let me know. Like I said, I have nothing to hide and it wasn't until this thread that I decided to really vent my feelings (i.e. frustrations) on Vista.
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#45 By
32132 (64.180.198.233)
at
9/30/2007 1:21:48 PM
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The 9700 Pro is a 5 year old card.
Gaming Graphics 4.3???
Nice photoshop.
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#46 By
32313 (208.131.186.18)
at
9/30/2007 1:24:49 PM
|
Well, chris_kabuki, your issues are specific to your system, I am not having any of the problems you have experienced. Its not like OS X and Linux have never had similar issues on hardware they are installed on. I just think we bad mouth the OS because its a Microsoft product. If it was Apple or OSS, MrRoper, chris_kabuki would find some other reason to say it is either hardware or its just the state of Linux and it will only get better. You say I don't have any rationale views, well its the same from people like you, you don't have a rationale view of things. Vista was just released 10 months ago and we must expect to certain degree that things will not be perfect out of the gate, no software is. Look at Apple, they are currently at 10.4.11 with Tiger. Thats why Microsoft continually invest in improving the product through things such as Windows Update, WHQL and Service Packs.
You call my comments moronic, so I call your views moronic because you refuse to look at it from a sensible perspective. Its, obviously a driver issue with your hardware why Vista is supposedly slow on it. I will not sit here and let you spew propaganda without getting a dose of rebuking and proper straightening out on the facts. At activewin.com, we believe in letting everybody share their views, mine included, whether it hurts or not. We are not like OSNews or Macrumors where your opinions are immediately deleted or not posted because you are a not part of the "cult", in this case fad.
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#47 By
2960 (68.100.112.199)
at
9/30/2007 1:34:26 PM
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#27,
I know where you got the first set of numbers, but how did you compile the timings?
i.e....
*****
Total Startup Time - 199.654 sec
Time to Desktop - 97.454 sec
Kernel Startup - 0.034 sec
Driver Startup - 4.108 sec
Device Startup - 8.075 sec
Explorer Startup - 64.135 sec
*****
I suspect the performance logs, right?
I haven't really had time to enable, dig into or play with those yet.
My basic machine numbers are:
Processor - 5.5
Memory - 5.5
Graphics - 5.9
Gaming Graphics - 5.9
Hard Drive - 5.6
Overall Index - 5.5 (always equals the lowest number above, which is stupid IMHO).
TL
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#48 By
2960 (68.100.112.199)
at
9/30/2007 2:01:31 PM
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#31 Wrote:
"How is it going to increase revenue or reduce expenses?"
That really is the bottom line in most companies, especially those with tens of thousands of people where just the roll-out itself would be a major expense to begin with.
There is only one thing that offsets the expenses of upgrading to Vista/Office 2007: Increased Productivity.
Productivity either goes up or goes down. There is no question that given the invasive nature of such an upgrade, the cost of the upgrade, and the cost of the re-training (both products require serious re-training) that the initial answer to this is LESS productivity.
The question is, what is the break-point. At what point are these decreases in productivity and increases in cost offset by INCREASES in productivity?
Is that point ever reached?
IMHO, I believe this break-even point has only been reached 3 times:
1. The move from DOS to Windows 3.1 (and this one is questionable).
2. The move from Windows 3.1 to Windows 95/98.
3. The move from Windows 95/98 to Windows 2000.
I do not believe that the move from Win2K/Office 2000 to WinXP/Office 2003 ever paid for itself in returns in productivity. IMHO this was the first upgrade required and performed only due to Microsoft Obsoleting the previous OS and Office package (2k/Office 2K). There were no real gains in user productivity. Yes, there were some gains in reliability, but some of that was offset by the massive increases in spyware and virus support requirements.
I am not convinced that the move from WinXP/Office 2003 to Vista/Office 2007 will net gains in productivity either, and it will again take Microsoft's obsoleting of the previous products to move all companies off of XP/2003. The training costs for Vista/Office 2007 are going to be enormous, especially for Office 2007. Engineering can dumb down Vista to a certain piont, but office 2007 is what it is. A completely different product from a user interface standpoint.
Note that no where in my text am I indicating which products are 'liked' better. When you are looking at corporate costs vs. gains vs. increases/decreases in productivity the word "like" does not apply. It's strictly about corporate profit/loss numbers, and IT overhead costs.
And now a short word on Hardware:
A toaster makes toast no matter how old it is, until it breaks and cannot be fixed.
A computer computes no matter how old it is, until it breaks and cannot be fixed.
The difference with hardware is you CAN get productivity gains on 3 year upgrade cycles based on the increased performance fo the computers for SOME professions. Admin's usually don't sit around waiting for their computer to finish a task. Graphics professionals and Data Base professionals do.
TL
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#49 By
2960 (68.100.112.199)
at
9/30/2007 2:02:12 PM
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Something told me to copy all that the clipboard before posting.
Sure enough, the login retention bug would have bit me in the ass again. Whew :)
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#50 By
32313 (208.131.186.18)
at
9/30/2007 2:23:16 PM
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#49, I agree, I always copy to clipboard when I make large post. :)
As for your views on learning curve with the new Office 2007 suite, I have not seen it based on my experience with Office 2007 deployed in the workplace. I am not saying there is no adjustment needed, even I had to do that after testing the product for over 12 months. But, when I released Office 2007 on my clients (15) it was instant adjustment. Most of them have moved their work from apps like Corel Draw and Illustrator because of the ease of use and new tools the Office suite provides in apps like Word 2007. We have to take into account familiarity too, if you have been using Office for years in the work place (and MS Office has been in the work place for many years now thats why it is the dominant productivity suite), people will accept change gradually as long as it make sense and does it in a logical sensible way that is easier and thats what Office Fluent does. The interface regardless of the radical change I have seen users first hand: novice, intermediate, expert adjust to it immediately.
Again, Office 2007 is wow the first time many users see it, but its setup so impressively people are enthused to use and learn the new features. The only major issue so far is the new XML formats for those who have not upgraded yet or install the free XML filters for older versions of Office.
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