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Why do Mac users dislike Microsoft? | |
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| Time: 10:26 EST/15:26 GMT | News Source: apple-x.net | Posted By: Byron Hinson | ||
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An age-old question. Just the other day a friend of mine asked me why there seems to be such an obsession in Western culture and scholarship with Nazi Germany. The seismic historical impact that Nazism and the Second World War had on the geographical, political, social and legal makeup of Western Europe and indeed the world would seem to a rather obvious answer to this question. | ||
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| #26 By 3339 (66.219.95.6) at 9/2/2003 8:06:30 PM |
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Code Foundry, your feint "And the argument that MS is a monopoly is a non-issue." appeared directed at me, as your whole post was largely directed at me... I apologize if I misunderstood.
I don't really appreciate arguments that go: this argument isn't an issue, but I'm about to defend it anyway. As if the defense of a non-issue becomes some sort of proactive argument. So... actually... I don't regret what I said. "sodajerk, as your name implies, your personal skills leave much to be desired. This was a simple discussion in which you turned it confrontational. All about operating systems, too." I approach allconversations, particularly internet ones, confrontationally. It's more fun. As for personal skills, they have no place on the internet. I'm not much for oxymorons. If you were to meet me on the street or at a pub, you would find me gracious, personable, and entertaining. Whatever, you've met the sodajerk (why do so many people read into that name?) See you around. This post was edited by sodajerk on Tuesday, September 02, 2003 at 20:43. |
| #27 By 3339 (66.219.95.6) at 9/2/2003 8:26:48 PM |
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Boy, Code, you don't comprende the jokees, do you? i.e. this: "since we've had a few posts now that don't address the topic at all... can we get back to the subject: can the softies admit that Microsoft hate is not limited to Mac users? " was a JOKE!! Touchy, touchy.
Your inability to separate two seemingly (but not) contradictory statements doesn't make an oxymoron. A large percentage of people do not like Microsoft. You can hear people showering praise on MS. (Does that statement speak to any volume of people or to what they actually say? No.) And hasn't it been a part of my argument that those who are vocal are prominent but represent a minority while sentiment is actually much more widespread and diverse? Hmm. But the definition of comprehensible or incomprehensible is not tied to the word impossible. A possible definition of incomprehensible is "difficult to understand." Duh, duh, duh!! Sorry, dude, but if you are going to insist that the inverse of what bluvg believes is true (that more comprehensible has no degrees--he actually thinks its incomprehensible which has no degrees) I have to say there is no way to teach you anything. Comprehension certainly has degrees. As in: I comprehend what I am saying better than you do. This post was edited by sodajerk on Tuesday, September 02, 2003 at 20:33. |
| #28 By 135 (208.186.90.91) at 9/2/2003 8:51:08 PM |
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jerky boy - "I don't find myself fanatical at all."
Fanatics never find themselves fanatical. Anyway this argument is based off several false premises, and as such it is difficult to have reasonable debate. |
| #29 By 3339 (66.219.95.6) at 9/2/2003 8:56:19 PM |
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What's up with this new tactic, soda, of saying: jerk is x, but x is irrelevent or putting good arguments aside, jerk is y?
Don't have anything to contribute? Trying to master the ad hominem? (Don't worry, you've got that down.) This post was edited by sodajerk on Tuesday, September 02, 2003 at 21:01. |
| #30 By 3339 (66.219.95.6) at 9/2/2003 11:34:43 PM |
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I really don't care if it was obvious or not. Obvious is not a goal or an ideal of mine. (Weren't you the one saying there could be no element of degree to the adjective (in)comprehensible? I wouldn't want to have to get to the level where everything I said was obvious for you... In my world, every adjective has degrees.)
"So your premise is that a vocal minority praises MS but the anti-sentiment is the actually majority, yet silent?" The vocal is definitely a minority. It is us. People who talk about computers. MS gets a large amount of criticism, some of it deserved, some of it undeserved. Some criticisms do not get much of a voice but are also deserved and undeserved. They also get praise. This is also true of Apple but to a much smaller extent. Some believe the representations of either Apple or Microsoft by the press, analysts, fans, users, fanatics, the completel idiots/morons/dumbasses is wrong and right. Some actually understand and present a clearly expressed voice. Some choose not to. But this is still the minority of computer users. And amongst the great wide community of both users and non-users, yes, there are people that hate Microsoft for a number of reasons. The evidence is all around me! Day-to-day... conversations and interactions with co-workers, clients, relatives... talking politics, finance, technology, media... reading newspapers, reading web discussions... in application, in theory, in simple human disposition... lots and lots of people are not fond of Microsoft! Plain and simple. "And what vocal minority is praising MS?" "they [sic] provide the platform from which my company develops its software and thus, I am able to pay my mortgage. Think what you will of MS, but they are the reason a lot of us have jobs. There are a lot of companies and a lot of departments at said companies that wouldn't exist without Microsoft's presence." [I edited the part about you "do[ing] [your] share of cussing MS while developing software" for those who make think I have "misquoted, taken quotes out of context [or] have I attributed fictional statements to others"] "When it is all said and done, truthfully, it makes my life easier. If companies had to develop software for 14 different platforms do you have any idea how much LESS software would be on store shelves? Supporting all the idiosyncrasies in disparate platforms would be a ridiculous burden on smaller companies and would reduce the playing field to a few large companies. I'm not saying that what MS did was legal but they were caught, a case was brought against them and they were found guilty. At the end of the day, I'm not losing any sleep over it." I've been hearing THAT BULLSH1T for almost ten years. This post was edited by sodajerk on Tuesday, September 02, 2003 at 23:38. |
| #31 By 135 (208.186.90.91) at 9/3/2003 12:37:18 AM |
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<I>What's up with this new tactic, soda</I>
Oh, I just don't have the ambition to dig any deeper. Much easier to just point out how you are wrong and watch you spew back 1,000 words of vitriol in defense. BTW... "I've been hearing THAT BULLSH1T for almost ten years. " That's because it's not BS. We(as consumers) made a conscience choice to get away from the platform incompatibilities which plagued us in the past. Frankly, the computing world is the better because of it. Life is so much simpler now, and we are able to do so much more since we gave up on platform wars. That you continue to want to go back 15 years in time thinking it was some sort of Golden Age is simply a testament to just how much of a fanatic you truly are. From my point of view, I just don't get you. If you want to run something that is incompatible and doesn't interoperate with others, you can do that now. You don't need Microsoft to be defeated to achieve this goal. Just go buy a Mac, sit in the corner with your one button mouse and be happy. |
| #32 By 7754 (165.247.248.88) at 9/3/2003 1:15:13 AM |
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Sodajerk--
I NEVER said that there weren't degrees of comprehension (thanks once again for putting words in my mouth). Incomprehensible in the context means 0% comprehensible. There is nothing less than 0% comprehension. You can talk of "more comprehensible" or "less comprehensible," but there's no such thing in that context as "more incomprehensible." And, yes, there is thus such a thing as either comprehensible or not--we aren't discussing to what degree that comprehension exists, just the existence or nonexistence of it. Incomprehensible in that context means NO comprehension, just as Visible--able to be seen (to whatever extent, it doesn't matter). Invisible--not able to be seen. Expressible--able to be expressed (to whatever degree, it doesn't matter). Inexpressible--not able to be expressed. Defensible--able to be defended (the amount of defense, it doesn't matter). Indefensible--not able to be defended. Divisible--able to be divided (how many divisions are possible, it doesn't matter). Indivisible--not able to be divided. "What does Mac marketshare have to do with rebutting that statement though?" What don't you get about this discussion being about MAC users dislike Microsoft?!?! I said I am debating other statements, some of which were not relevant to your supposed point that users besides Mac users also hate Microsoft. That is a safe argument to hide behind, but you've made many statements besides that, so don't pretend that your ONLY argument is that users besides Mac users also hate Microsoft. Mac market share does have something to do with this discussion. "My statements today are entirely consistent with the comments I made the first day I begin posting. I am not backpedaling at all." You really expect anyone to believe that?!?! NO WAY. We have had endless discussions about Mac UI, OS X, market share, pricing, performance, ad nauseam, and you do nothing but support Apple and bash Microsoft. You won't convince anyone here otherwise, so don't expect to get away with "I am not backpedaling at all" in saying that you are not a Mac devotee, you spend 80% of your time on a PC, and yet nothing but Mac support and Microsoft bashing comes from your posts. And FWIW, 80% of your time spent on a PC means NOTHING about what platform you argue to support. If it does, are you saying that despite all your criticism, Windows is really the best choice for you? If Apple has the better UI, the better and faster hardware, the best TCO, the better stability, the better support, the better business practices, the better cross-platform friendliness, etc. etc., as we have all witnessed you argue many, many times in the past, then why on earth are you using a PC 80% of the time?!?! I don't think it's by your choice, so don't even say such nonsense. "...can we get back to the subject: can the softies admit that Microsoft hate is not limited to Mac users?" No, this was not the subject. The article is about why Mac users dislike Microsoft. You want to make that contribution of yours into the subject because it's easy to hide behind and to steer people away from completely picking apart some of the statements you've made. |
| #33 By 3339 (66.219.95.6) at 9/3/2003 1:35:29 AM |
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"That you continue to want to go back 15 years in time thinking it was some sort of Golden Age is simply a testament to just how much of a fanatic you truly are."
I'm not living in the past at all. The idea that nothing would have happened without MS, that 3 or 5 OSes can't interoperate, that programming cannot happen independent of a platform, etc... These are the ideas that are antiquated, but unfortunately, some of them continue to be perpetuated. "From my point of view, I just don't get you. If you want to run something that is incompatible and doesn't interoperate with others, you can do that now. You don't need Microsoft to be defeated to achieve this goal. Just go buy a Mac, sit in the corner with your one button mouse and be happy." I'm doing just fine now. Don't see why happiness requires "submission" to Microsoft. I choose to be proficient in two platforms. I choose to make a living on one. And enjoy another. What ways must I change? Now, let me try to teach bluvg about English. bluvg, you are an unimaginative and restricted person if you limit English in such retarded fashion. YOu can certainly have things which are "more invisible" than another "invisible" thing. There are certainly degrees. My incomprehesion of your idiocy is more inexpressable than my feelings of disgust towards MS. There are things which are utterly indefensible (like) ignorance, but you lack of nuance is probably more indefensible. "What don't you get about this discussion being about MAC users dislike Microsoft?!?!" Because the point is to try to understand the cause of the sentiment, and demonstrating that the sentiment is not isolated to Mac users shows that isolating a reason for Mac hate is inconsequential. As I posted in the other article, boy, China and S. Korea and Japan getting together to thwart MS, they sure hate MS. If we isolated all of the groups that hate MS and attempted to isolate the reasons they hate MS, you are just going to end up with a list of all the reasons to hate MS no matter what group you are speaking of. "You really expect anyone to believe that?!?! NO WAY. We have had endless discussions about Mac UI, OS X, market share, pricing, performance, ad nauseam, and you do nothing but support Apple and bash Microsoft. You won't convince anyone here otherwise, so don't expect to get away with "I am not backpedaling at all" in saying that you are not a Mac devotee, you spend 80% of your time on a PC, and yet nothing but Mac support and Microsoft bashing comes from your posts. And FWIW, 80% of your time spent on a PC means NOTHING about what platform you argue to support. If it does, are you saying that despite all your criticism, Windows is really the best choice for you? If Apple has the better UI, the better and faster hardware, the best TCO, the better stability, the better support, the better business practices, the better cross-platform friendliness, etc. etc., as we have all witnessed you argue many, many times in the past, then why on earth are you using a PC 80% of the time?!?! I don't think it's by your choice, so don't even say such nonsense." Please find anyone at this site that says this isn't consistent with what I have said for two years now. Please. The reason, by the way, this is so is simple: practicality. "No, this was not the subject. The article is about why Mac users dislike Microsoft. You want to make that contribution of yours into the subject because it's easy to hide behind and to steer people away from completely picking apart some of the statements you've made." Talk about whatever you'd like. Nobodies stopping me, and I ain't stopping you. You know I'm right though. This post was edited by sodajerk on Wednesday, September 03, 2003 at 02:02. |
| #34 By 7754 (165.247.248.88) at 9/3/2003 2:14:18 AM |
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"YOu can certainly have things which are 'more invisible' than another 'invisible' thing."
WRONG. Nice try to always be right, sodajerk, but you are just plain wrong on this one. If you are used to using English in this manner, you may want to consider otherwise. Once something is INdivisible, it is NO LONGER able to be divided. In the context used, there is no getting around this--if something is 0% comprehensible--incomprehensible--it is NOT CAPABLE of being comprehended. The "degree of comprehension" is zero. NO comprehension. You can have more comprehension than that, but you CAN'T HAVE LESS. You can't defend otherwise, so just give it up. It's not relevant to the discussion anyhow. "China and S. Korea and Japan getting together to thwart MS, they sure hate MS." Well, when you have to pay for something you stole previously, there is incentive to find something else. They also have an interest in supporting software development based in their own countries (particularly in the case of China). Nonetheless, the vocal Microsoft bashing from Mac devotees (as evidenced clearly in your posts) is unique. "Please find anyone at this site that says this isn't consistent with what I have said for two years now. Please. The reason this is so is simple: practicality." That's a nice try again, sodajerk, but too bad already several in this post have indicated that you are a Mac devotee. It has been completely clear in your posts since I've been here. If you're saying it's not, provide proof otherwise. If it's not true, please do explain why you claim that you're not a Mac devotee and you're spending 80% of your time on a PC even though so many of us here have witnessed you say nothing but your distaste for Microsoft and your support for Apple. "You know I'm right though." In your fantasy land, you're always right, no matter what. Sometimes I feel like I'm listening to the Iraqi Information Minister! |
| #35 By 7754 (165.247.248.88) at 9/3/2003 2:27:05 AM |
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And sodajerk, please do answer this question: if you are using Windows 80% of the time, then is it true that most of the time, Windows is the best choice for you?
Well, I'm off to bed. No hard feelings anyone, right (sodajerk?)? Actually, sodajerk, even though I usually disagree with some of your comments (or even find them maddening! :) ), I'm glad you're here. Without contributers like you, the discussions here would be rather boring! This post was edited by bluvg on Wednesday, September 03, 2003 at 02:28. |
| #36 By 1868 (141.133.152.108) at 9/3/2003 8:11:35 AM |
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Best line out of this whole discussion,
Sodajerk's post #29 "Am I an anti-Microsoft fantic? Sure." This post was edited by Zeo01 on Wednesday, September 03, 2003 at 08:16. |
| #37 By 3339 (66.219.95.6) at 9/3/2003 12:09:37 PM |
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bluvg, you just can't read and you don't know how to use adjectives or the true power of English. Pathetic. I said I couldn't be a Mac devotee. So please point out where I say I am one.
"then is it true that most of the time, Windows is the best choice for you?" No. It's not a choice so how can it be the best one? What's so irreconciliable about using PCs 80% of the time, not being a Mac devotee, but still preferring and enjoying the Mac and hating Microsoft? It's entirely consistent and is probably the case for a fair percentage of users. Did you think I've been posting here for two years without largely being a Win user? This post was edited by sodajerk on Wednesday, September 03, 2003 at 13:11. |
| #38 By 135 (208.186.90.91) at 9/3/2003 1:15:46 PM |
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I'm not living in the past at all. The idea that nothing would have happened without MS, that 3 or 5 OSes can't interoperate, that programming cannot happen independent of a platform, etc... These are the ideas that are antiquated, but unfortunately, some of them continue to be perpetuated.
If you believe this is true, really believe this is true... Then start using Mac OSX and Linux and leave us Windows users alone. The only reason you're on here bashing Windows, though, is because it is not true. You cannot be platform independent. You cannot interoperate 100%, and you expect Windows to change to support your world viewpoint. That's what I call outdated thinking. I'm doing just fine now. Don't see why happiness requires "submission" to Microsoft. I choose to be proficient in two platforms. I choose to make a living on one. And enjoy another. What ways must I change? Oh balleyhock. I said happiness should be about what you want. If you want Mac OSX, then use it and be happy. Why do you keep turning everything into an anti-Microsoft argument? If you were doing just fine you wouldn't be here all the time whining about how Windows doesn't support your world viewpoint. LEAVE US ALONE! WE ARE SO SICK OF YOUR ANTI-MICROSOFT ANYTHING WHINING. |
| #39 By 3339 (66.219.95.6) at 9/3/2003 5:50:33 PM |
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"LEAVE US ALONE!"
Aaaargh! Calgon, take me away! Didn't know I was doing anything to you, touchy little man! "If you believe this is true, really believe this is true... Then start using Mac OSX and Linux and leave us Windows users alone." I do currently use OS X, Linux, AND Windows. And, yes, I do believe it. "The only reason you're on here bashing Windows, though, is because it is not true. You cannot be platform independent. You cannot interoperate 100%, and you expect Windows to change to support your world viewpoint." No, I do it because that is how I feel and I like it. I expect Microsoft, MS users, etc... to be pissed off, not to agree with me. This post was edited by sodajerk on Wednesday, September 03, 2003 at 18:32. |
| #40 By 135 (208.186.90.91) at 9/3/2003 7:40:09 PM |
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sodajerk - "I do currently use OS X, Linux, AND Windows. And, yes, I do believe it. "
Ahh, then if it was true, Microsoft wouldn't have to do anything. "No, I do it because that is how I feel and I like it. I expect Microsoft, MS users, etc... to be pissed off, not to agree with me." All you've succeeded in doing is get Microsoft users pissed off at you. Perhaps if you were a bit more reasonable and didn't take every opportunity to attack Microsoft. |
| #41 By 3339 (66.219.95.6) at 9/3/2003 8:22:00 PM |
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"Ahh, then if it was true, Microsoft wouldn't have to do anything."
soda, you're getting retarded. Do you use Windows? Do you think Microsoft has nothing to do, nothing to improve? "All you've succeeded in doing is get Microsoft users pissed off at you." That's part of my objective. So fine. And I KNOW I've changed a couple of perspectives on some issues from time to time. "Perhaps if you were a bit more reasonable and didn't take every opportunity to attack Microsoft." What? I'd have your admiration and approval? That's somethign I would never desire or care to have. No thanks, doing just fine. |
| #42 By 3653 (209.149.57.116) at 9/3/2003 8:43:23 PM |
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mr dreadful, before I rid my company of macs, we had as high as 30 macs in use and probably 300 pcs. And my opinion is 180 degrees from yours. I found the mac users to be several evolutionary rungs below the average pc user. And my MIS staff spent 3X the time working on the few macs that we had.
BTW... infected word templates on a mac... still counts as a mac problem. |
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