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  Compatibility and IE8
Time: 02:09 EST/07:09 GMT | News Source: Microsoft | Posted By: Kenneth van Surksum

Chris Wilson: In Dean’s recent Internet Explorer 8 and Acid2: A Milestone post, he highlighted our responsibility to deliver both interoperability (web pages working well across different browsers) and backwards compatibility (web pages working well across different versions of IE). We need to do both, so that IE8 continues to work with the billions of pages on the web today that already work in IE6 and IE7 but also makes the development of the next billion pages (in an interoperable way) much easier. Continuing Dean’s theme, I’d like to talk about some steps we are taking in IE8 to achieve these goals.

I’ve been on the IE team for over a decade, and I’ve seen us apply the “Don’t Break the Web” rule in six different major versions of IE in different ways. In IE 6, we used the DOCTYPE switch to enable different “modes” of behavior to protect compatibility. When we released IE 6 in 2001, very few pages on the web were in “standards mode” (my team ran a report on the top 200 web sites at the time that reported less than 1%) – few people knew what a DOCTYPE was, and few tools generated them. We used the DOCTYPE switch in IE6 to change the box model to comply with the standards and enable developers to opt-in to the new behavior. We’d already seen so much content written to IE5.x’s non-standard interpretation of the CSS2 spec that we couldn’t change it without causing a slew of problems.

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#1 By 15406 (216.191.227.68) at 1/22/2008 3:53:35 PM
So IE8 will have 3 rendering modes. And for MS to comply with ACID2 web standards support, everyone else must add a new DOCTYPE declaration to their pages. Nice. Too bad MS couldn't just, I don't know, comply with the standards without putting the burden on everyone else????? I understand that this is for compatibility, but the fastest way to get people to fix their IE6-specific pages is to break them. Punishing people who do it right for the sake of the lazy is unacceptable.


#2 By 61 (97.97.171.73) at 1/22/2008 4:19:58 PM
Why not just have super standards mode on by default and thenhave an option for the user to switch to quirks? Yes users are stupid but you can work around that easily enough.

Microsoft is always so hell bent on backwards compatability by default rather than on an as needed basis and it always messes everything up even worse.

#3 By 16797 (65.95.26.87) at 1/22/2008 6:52:46 PM
#1 You know, you're so ignorant that it is becoming really really hard to even read your posts.. Maybe I shouldn't, I know.

1. "Everyone else must add new DOCTYPE.."

Uhmm.. no?

2. "Too bad MS couldn't just.. comply with the standards.."

Show me just one other (and relevant) browser that complies. Do you realize that, for example, your beloved Firefox is facing the same problem? Pages that are optimized for, for example, Firefox 2 may not work properly in FF 3 or did you miss the fact that FF3 passes Acid2 while FF2 doesn't? Let me translate that for you: Firefox 3 is going to render pages differently than FF2.. Just like IE8 vs IE7, etc.

3. "The fastest way to get people to fix their IE6-specific pages is to break them"

Are you fucking crazy? There are BIG web sites that were created like years ago, with thousands of pages. What would be the cost of doing that - changing them all? And... more importantly WHY??? If IE8 can render them in IE6 mode, no problems. Fix them at your own pace, how's that not better?
How about some stuff that is available on CDs, as someone commented over there? Oh you upgrade to IE8 and now that app you have on your CD doesn't really work that well?

This move just shows that MS cares about its customers, unlike Mozilla (fix your pages, or else --- fuck you! You know, the fact that FF2 and FF3 render pages differently, well.. it's your problem now.)

Last thing, Microsoft accepted this solution because it was recommended to them by The Web Standards Project. You know, the guys that created stuff like Acid2 test.

Read more at AListApart.com:

Unwilling to make the same mistake twice, Microsoft reached out to The Web Standards Project (of which I am a member) and to several other standards-aware developers, and asked for our help in coming up with a better method of allowing developers to “opt in” to proper standards support. The goal was to find a method that was more explicit than the DOCTYPE switch, and could be implemented in any browser, not just IE.

Sure, ignorant asshats like you all over the web will again say Microsoft this, Microsoft that..

This post was edited by gonzo on Tuesday, January 22, 2008 at 18:54.

#4 By 37047 (99.241.35.182) at 1/22/2008 8:29:56 PM
It is good that Microsoft and FF are moving toward better web standards support. Now, it is time for web developers to do the same thing, and not be lazy, by crafting standards compliant web pages. This includes the DOCTYPE declaration. If they do this, then the chances of the pages being rendered equally well in both IE and FF will increase dramatically.

#5 By 15406 (216.191.227.68) at 1/23/2008 9:26:21 AM
#3: You know, you're so ignorant that it is becoming really really hard to even read your posts.. Maybe I shouldn't, I know.

Sounds good to me.

1. "Everyone else must add new DOCTYPE.."

Uhmm.. no?


umm, yes?


2. "Too bad MS couldn't just.. comply with the standards.."

Show me just one other (and relevant) browser that complies. Do you realize that, for example, your beloved Firefox is facing the same problem? Pages that are optimized for, for example, Firefox 2 may not work properly in FF 3 or did you miss the fact that FF3 passes Acid2 while FF2 doesn't? Let me translate that for you: Firefox 3 is going to render pages differently than FF2.. Just like IE8 vs IE7, etc.


FF3 and Opera seem to be able to manage without having the pages custom-coded for them. I wasn't aware that FF3 breaks FF2 pages. Do you have any confirmation of this?


3. "The fastest way to get people to fix their IE6-specific pages is to break them"

Are you fucking crazy? There are BIG web sites that were created like years ago, with thousands of pages. What would be the cost of doing that - changing them all? And... more importantly WHY??? If IE8 can render them in IE6 mode, no problems. Fix them at your own pace, how's that not better?


If IE8 can determine they're legacy pages and render them properly, then great. Let the onus be on MS to figure out how it should rendered.

How about some stuff that is available on CDs, as someone commented over there? Oh you
upgrade to IE8 and now that app you have on your CD doesn't really work that well?


Oh well. You can't take a step forward without leaving the step you're on.

This move just shows that MS cares about its customers, unlike Mozilla (fix your pages, or
else --- fuck you! You know, the fact that FF2 and FF3 render pages differently, well.. it's
your problem now.)


MS has a long history of not giving a rat's ass about anything other than its own concerns. If what MS wants to do just happens to benefit consumers, then it's a happy little coincidence.

Last thing, Microsoft accepted this solution because it was recommended to them by The Web
Standards Project. You know, the guys that created stuff like Acid2 test.


They accepted it because it was in their best interests (for whatever reason). Like any behemoth, MS only listens to others when others are saying what MS wants to hear. This was probably a case where what MS wanted happened to dovetail with the WSP's recommendations.


Read more at AListApart.com:

Unwilling to make the same mistake twice, Microsoft reached out to The Web Standards Project
(of which I am a member) and to several other standards-aware developers, and asked for our
help in coming up with a better method of allowing developers to “opt in” to proper
standards support. The goal was to find a method that was more explicit than the DOCTYPE
switch, and could be implemented in any browser, not just IE.

Sure, ignorant asshats like you all over the web will again say Microsoft this, Microsoft that..


Yep, and we have to to counter the constant BS coming from the legions of MS apologists and ideologues that work hard to buff the MS turd.

#6 By 16797 (65.95.26.87) at 1/23/2008 11:09:43 AM
#5

1. "umm, yes?"

NO. Go read the fuckin' article again.. DOCTYPE is not the solution. That's why The Web Standards Project recommened different solution. Did you even read it? Or you just don't understand perhaps because you don't do any programming really?

2. "I wasn't aware that FF3 breaks FF2 pages. Do you have any confirmation of this?"

Go open Acid2 test page in FF2. Then open that same page in FF3. Do they look the same? NO.

By the way, Firefox also has quirks mode so that it can render old pages "properly". I don't hear you complaining about that?? :-) But then, how would you know.. And one last thing: do you know who was it that started all that crap - "let's render pages even if those do not pass basic validation?" It was Netscape.


This post was edited by gonzo on Wednesday, January 23, 2008 at 11:20.

#7 By 16797 (65.95.26.87) at 1/23/2008 11:20:15 AM
Just one more thing:

#5 "FF3 and Opera seem to be able to manage without having the pages custom-coded for them. "

FF3 is not even released yet.. And by the way, how does that solve the problem of different rendering between FF2 and FF3? (Why is there quirks mode in FF?)

As of now, if you code according to W3C recommendations, you DO have to write hacks for both FF and IE. And that's exactly how we do it here where I work: we code properly, test with browsers that can pass Acid2 (by the way, Acid2 is just ONE test, relates mainly to CSS. There are many other things..), then we hack for FF and IE. But, as I said, how would you know anything about it?

That's it.. you're just way too ignorant, discussing anything with you is a complete waste of time.

This post was edited by gonzo on Wednesday, January 23, 2008 at 11:21.

#8 By 88850 (221.128.181.20) at 1/23/2008 11:30:14 AM
Somewhere in the comments they state that there is going to be a registry settings that'll force IE8 standards mode.

#9 By 15406 (216.191.227.68) at 1/23/2008 12:07:12 PM
#6: OK, OK. You're right and I'm horribly wrong. You don't get IE8's compliant mode with a DOCTYPE tag; instead it's a <meta> tag. Here I was, foolishly calling it baby blue when in fact it was robin's egg blue. Burn me at the stake.

Go open Acid2 test page in FF2. Then open that same page in FF3. Do they look the same? NO.

I'm not sure how that's relevant to what I asked. I asked about pages that look fine in FF2 but are broken in FF3.

By the way, Firefox also has quirks mode so that it can render old pages "properly". I don't hear you complaining about that?? :-) But then, how would you know..

Why would I complain about it? I'm also not complaining about IE's quirks mode, per se. My beef is that MS requires you to modify your web pages to support their improved compliance, which is something that neither FF nor Opera make you do.

And one last thing: do you know who was it that started all that crap - "let's render pages even if those do not pass basic validation?" It was Netscape.

Fascinating, yet completely irrelevant. However, that doesn't quite match my recollection. IE has always had a reputation of being more forgiving of errors. I'm not sure how that crown got transferred to Netscape.

#7: FF3 is not even released yet..

Neither is IE8. Your point being...?

And by the way, how does that solve the problem of different rendering between FF2 and FF3? (Why is there quirks mode in FF?)

I have no idea, but I do know that their solution, whatever it is, doesn't seem to require the web to change for them like MS' does.

That's it.. you're just way too ignorant, discussing anything with you is a complete waste of time.

Does that mean I won't be bothered with any more replies from you? Sounds like a net plus to me.

#10 By 16797 (65.95.26.87) at 1/23/2008 12:45:31 PM
Here's another great comment on this topic, from Jeffrey Zeldman:

http://www.zeldman.com/2008/01/22/in-defense-of-version-targeting/


I’d love to live in a world where the vast majority of websites were compliant and accessible. But that’s not the real world. At least, not today.

Today too many sites aren’t semantic, don’t validate, and aren’t designed to specs of the W3C. Idealists think we can change this by “forcing” ignorant developers to get wisdom about web standards. Idealists hope, if sites suddenly display poorly in IE, the developers will want to know why, and will embark on a magical journey of web standards learning.

You feel that way because you are special.

You care about semantics and accessibility because it’s right.

That’s how we’re going to get more converts. By persuading more people that it’s right.

We won’t get converts by breaking sites and ridiculing their creators for not knowing as much as we do.

I commend Aaron Gustafson for his courage and intelligence and thank him and his small band of colleagues, and the engineers they worked with at Microsoft, for offering a way forward that keeps web standards front and center in all future versions of IE.


(More on Jeffrey: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Zeldman)

#11 By 15406 (216.191.227.68) at 1/23/2008 1:31:17 PM
#10: Thanks for the link. I read it and it was informative, although I disagree with some of his statements. The comments are also most enlightening, in that the majority of posters agree with me and think that putting the burden on the compliant people is ass-backwards and icky. If your site looks like ass in IE8 compliant mode, put a simple tag in your header to tell IE8 to render in IE7 mode. A short script could fix a thousand pages per second using that method and it wouldn't require a total site redesign.

#12 By 15406 (216.191.227.68) at 1/23/2008 1:53:43 PM
Interesting blog post from one of the guys that supposedly wrote ACID2/3:

http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1201080691&count=1


#13 By 2960 (72.196.195.185) at 1/23/2008 3:53:48 PM
Why can't it have automatic fall-over?

Start off best, move to next, then move to xxxxx as needed.

I'm sure MS has a rocket scientist that could have figured this out.

TL

#14 By 2960 (72.196.195.185) at 1/23/2008 3:54:09 PM
Why can't it have automatic fall-over?

Start off best, move to next, then move to xxxxx as needed.

I'm sure MS has a rocket scientist that could have figured this out.

TL

#15 By 92283 (142.32.208.232) at 1/23/2008 4:06:23 PM
The perfect soundtrack to reading Latch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNzZzsvOClc

#16 By 16797 (65.95.26.87) at 1/23/2008 4:56:35 PM
#14 Because it is (nearly) impossible to implement. How would IE know if page layout is broken or not? For example, what if you created a page that looks weird, but because you really wanted to?

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