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Opera files complaint against Microsoft in the EU over IE, Windows bundle; CTO makes Web standards case | |
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| Time: 13:13 EST/18:13 GMT | News Source: ZDNet | Posted By: Jonathan Tigner | ||
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Opera Software said Thursday it is filing a complaint against Microsoft in the European Union alleging the software giant is abusing its power and tying Internet Explorer to the Windows operating system. Opera also has a beef about Microsoft’s support for Web standards. In its complaint, Opera argues that: “Microsoft is abusing its dominant position by tying its browser, Internet Explorer, to the Windows operating system and by hindering interoperability by not following accepted Web standards. Opera has requested the Commission to take the necessary actions to compel Microsoft to give consumers a real choice and to support open Web standards in Internet Explorer.” This argument is sounding pretty familiar as Microsoft has repeatedly been in hot water over tying IE and Windows together. That’s what the scrum with the Department of Justice years ago was about. However, Opera is likely to find a more receptive audience in the EU, which isn’t exactly a fan of Microsoft’s. I’m no lawyer, but if the EU had a beef with tying Windows Media Player and Windows together it only stands to reason that it will have a similar ruling about IE. Related: | ||
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| #1 By 8556 (12.208.163.138) at 12/13/2007 1:48:30 PM |
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I prefer Opera as it is much faster than IE, which only matters when a web server is under a heavy load. However, this whining about IE in late 2007 is quite poor timing. Even though EU may favor Opera as a home grown piece of software, Opera should have complained years ago. Apple should be sued for including Safari, even though on OS X the two browsers are equally fast. Why pick on just Microsoft, unless Opera's wallet is getting thin?
Oh, and Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, Happy Holidays, Seasons Greetings, etc. May we have peace on earth and in softwareland. Note how only Merry Christmas rates a popup when running your cursor over it. Lazy ad agency. This post was edited by bobsireno on Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 13:50. |
| #2 By 72426 (69.229.212.13) at 12/13/2007 3:07:11 PM |
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This will be great, more N versions that no one will buy.
The irony is that Vista is divorced from IE and MS can easily ship an N version of Vista with no IE, comply with the complaint, and make the N version even more worthless. I wonder what Opera thinks they will gain with this? Are they also making claims against Apple, the iPhone and other markets where and OS and browser is bundled, and the market is completely locked as the iPhone is with no 3rd party optional browsers? This kind of crap makes me want to just delete Opera and tell people they are parasites. I keep it for development, but seriously I don't even care if sites work right on it at this point, let them burn in their own arrogance. Just like Sun did with Java, now over 50% of the desktops now have NO Java installed since it was ripped from XP, as most users never take the time to install the Sun Java client. Talk about cutting off nose to spite face 101. (Ironically since the lawsuit, Sun has licensed Java to Apple to produce an OS specific version for OSX, just like they sued MS for doing for Windows.) |
| #3 By 92283 (64.180.196.143) at 12/13/2007 3:16:04 PM |
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http://www.searchenginejournal.com/google-opera-renew-ad-deal-but-still-no-gbrowser/5941/
"November 2nd, 2007 Opera Software and Google have renewed their partnership agreement for another two years as Google will remain the default search provider for Opera browsers and provide. Up until 2005, Opera was serving banner ads or subscriptions to their browser to help offset operations costs. Then, the company formed their partnership with Google, letting AdWords results in search monetize their browser." So ... a month after Opera continues it sellout to Google, they sue Microsoft. Concidence? I think not. Both Firefox and Opera are just proxies in Googles war with Microsoft. |
| #4 By 9589 (75.183.112.245) at 12/13/2007 3:28:31 PM |
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Opera? What is it?
Frankly, Opera rates so poor on our web log analysis regarding the number of users that use it, that we do not test against it. Meanwhile, this is just another cry baby company that can't compete and is running to mommy (the EU) for redress. The incredulous thing is that the "country" without a constitution, but a "contract" will probable take them up on it. |
| #5 By 8556 (12.210.39.82) at 12/13/2007 4:48:03 PM |
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jdhawk: Many Opera users still set the browser to report that it is IE. Even so, I doubt that Opera has a meaningful market share. Still, kindly don't ignore Opera users like so many others do when testing web site designs. Does pretty please help any? This post was edited by bobsireno on Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 16:50. |
| #6 By 3653 (65.80.181.153) at 12/13/2007 4:52:09 PM |
| "suing microsoft on antitrust grounds" is quickly overtaking "is soon releasing their product as open source" as the telltale sign that a business is pre-bankruptcy. |
| #7 By 28801 (71.58.231.46) at 12/13/2007 5:29:07 PM |
| Hey moores, where you been? |
| #8 By 22601 (99.230.135.69) at 12/13/2007 6:11:47 PM |
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I track browser stats. The numbers vary from site to site, but Opera appears to be used by about 1% of users. This number has been about the same for some years.
Re testing with Opera: even if your site has few Opera users, you will likely benefit from testing your site with Opera. The reason for this is that Opera is considerably more standards-compliant than IE, but IE does comply better in each major revision, so making a site work with Opera makes it more likely that the site will work with few or no changes when the next major version of IE appears. In essence, testing with Opera enables you to future-proof your site for IE. |
| #9 By 1169 (87.194.35.234) at 12/14/2007 4:49:13 AM |
| As long as they stop Apple from bundling Safari then it is all even, otherwise, Apple gets away with the same practice, hence could be also called a monopoly. Pursue Apple for the same, then we are talking about a fair legal challenge, otherwise is MS bashing just because they are succesful |
| #10 By 88850 (221.128.180.178) at 12/14/2007 7:46:12 AM |
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If you think from Opera's point of view, they've been producing one of the most standards-compliant and a feature-rich browser for years, yet they cannot win if they compete purely on technical merit. They even gave it away free eventually. So generally speaking, some justice must be done and certain things must be set right, especially if the dominant browser didn't evolve for 5 years and the latest version is lacking so much standards-compliance. I don't agree with their argument about "bundling" as MS has full right to do so, but Opera is being ignored completely (by 99% of people) and MS is dominant inspite of being technically flawed. This point is really meaningful.
And please, for anyone who says IE7 is better, I'd say they are only a user, they don't know anything about web development. This post was edited by tuxplorer on Friday, December 14, 2007 at 07:49. |
| #11 By 37047 (216.191.227.68) at 12/14/2007 7:59:54 AM |
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#10: Good points!
I think that IE should be unbundled from the core OS for purely security and stability reasons. I have no problem with it being shipped as part of Windows, just as several other apps and utility programs are, but I have a problem with it being integrated into the OS itself. A browser crash, for example, should not be able to bring down the whole OS. And more to the point, an application that is connecting to various external servers on the internet, both trusted and untrusted, should not be that deeply integrated into the OS, where a security flaw can cause the greatest amount of damage. And to counter the obvious retorts from the zealot crowd, I wouldn't want Firefox or Opera to be embedded into the core of Windows or Linux either, for exactly the same reasons. And fortunately, they aren't. |
| #12 By 37047 (216.191.227.68) at 12/14/2007 8:02:14 AM |
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#9: As long as they stop Apple from bundling Safari then it is all even, otherwise, Apple gets away with the same practice, hence could be also called a monopoly.
A monopoly is not defined by whether or not you bundle a browser with the OS. And a company with less than 10% market share is allowed to do many things that a monopoly is not allowed to do. Monopolies are covered by an extra set of laws that a company that is not in a monopoly position is not subject to. |
| #13 By 28801 (65.90.202.10) at 12/14/2007 8:46:39 AM |
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#11: Agreed - Get it out of the OS (Hopefully in Windows 7)
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| #14 By 28801 (65.90.202.10) at 12/14/2007 10:59:20 AM |
| Does anyone know of any plug-ins for Opera or FF that will facilitate NT authentication to IIS Servers? I found a couple of blurbs about adding servers to the network.automatic-ntlm-auth.trusted-uris in the about:config, but this seems a little hokey to me. |
| #15 By 17996 (66.235.18.153) at 12/14/2007 11:51:54 AM |
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#11: "A browser crash, for example, should not be able to bring down the whole OS."
Name me one time where "the whole OS" was brought down by IE. We're talking blue-screen here, not "Internet Explorer has encountered a problem and needs to close." IE runs as an application, in user-mode, running with the privileges of the currently logged-on user. On Vista, it even runs as a restricted user, with less privileges than the logged-on user. Firefox and Opera also both run as user-mode applications with the privileges of the logged-on user (though they don't support Protected Mode yet). There is no "integration" with the OS provided by IE that goes any further than what any other program does. (Even pre-IE7 when IE and shell components were shared, that didn't give malicious data from the internet any more access to your computer than from any other internet-facing application.) #12: In the US antitrust case against Microsoft, Mac OS was excluded from the "relevant market" because 1) it did not work on x86 processors, and 2) was not available separately for sale. The point is, the DOJ (and good ol' Judge Jackson) specifically tuned the market definition on technicalities to exclude Apple in order to claim Microsoft has a monopoly. Today's Apple ads are evidence that Apple considers itself as a competitor with Microsoft in a common market. However if you tune the market definition, you could say that Apple has a monopoly over operating systems for Mac, given that you are forced to buy Mac OS with every Mac computer, and thusly Safari's bundling is just as anticompetitive as IE's. |
| #16 By 92283 (142.32.208.232) at 12/14/2007 12:19:09 PM |
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Microsft has the right to bundle features that users need as long as they do not impede other software from being installed that competes with those bundled features.
Of course Microsofts competitors want Microsoft to remove features that people need. They can't produce a compelling enough product to get people to spend 2 minutes downloading and installing some software. Microsoft is not a monopoly. The EU specifically claimed Microsoft was a "near monopoly". Even they weren't Asshat enough to claim Microsoft was a monopoly. |
| #17 By 37047 (216.191.227.68) at 12/14/2007 12:21:16 PM |
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#15: However if you tune the market definition, you could say that Apple has a monopoly over operating systems for Mac, given that you are forced to buy Mac OS with every Mac computer, and thusly Safari's bundling is just as anticompetitive as IE's.
By this definition, Sony has a monopoly in the cell phone market, as I have to use their embedded OS when I use a Sony cell phone or PDA. And Nokia also has a monopoly in the cell phone market, because I have to use the OS that they supply if I buy a Nokia phone. And LG has a monopoly in the cell phone market for the same reason. What a wonderful market the cell phone market is! Everyone can have a monopoly! If your Palm Treo came with Palm OS, then I guess Palm is also a monopoly! Today's Apple ads are evidence that Apple considers itself as a competitor with Microsoft in a common market. There is nothing wrong with competing against a monopoly. That does not mean that Apple must be a monopoly too, just because they are competing against Microsoft. |
| #18 By 17996 (131.107.0.105) at 12/14/2007 1:03:25 PM |
| #17: Apple competing against Microsoft, and the success it is seeing, supports the argument that Microsoft does *not* have a monopoly -- and consequently should be free to do whatever it wants in the market. |
| #19 By 52115 (66.181.69.250) at 12/14/2007 1:19:42 PM |
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All I can say is Opera is the best, fastest, most featureful (is that a word?) and safest browser out there. Look up the number of vulnerabilites for it on Secunia when it's compared with Firefox and IE; I didn't see any OUTSTANDING vulnerabilities with it.
It was the FIRST browser to use tabs. I think they should sue Microsoft for IP infringment. Long live Opera.. |
| #20 By 28801 (65.90.202.10) at 12/14/2007 2:44:29 PM |
| #19: yes, but the question... Does it support NT authentication. If not, then I have no use for it. |
| #21 By 16797 (65.93.213.131) at 12/14/2007 3:08:20 PM |
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#19 You must be kidding, right? Opera to sue MS for tabbed browsing?
How about IBrowse on Amiga? Or NetCaptor? |
| #22 By 37 (66.188.104.250) at 12/14/2007 4:01:30 PM |
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I prefer Opera as it is much faster than IE,
You should put "in my experience" at the end of that. Others have found IE to be substantially faster than Opera in their experience. |
| #23 By 3653 (65.80.181.153) at 12/14/2007 4:46:24 PM |
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funny how even the msft-haters can't really get behind opera's new court case. ah, the winds of change...
rxcall - thx for noticing. was on a S.American vacation for 2 months. I miss anything on AW? ;-) |
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