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Microsoft Continues to Expand Interoperability Options for Office Customers | |
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| Time: 10:38 EST/15:38 GMT | News Source: Press Release | Posted By: Michael Dragone | ||
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As part of its continued commitment to deliver interoperability by design, Microsoft Corp. today announced a new collaborative effort with the Beihang University (Beijing University of Aeronautics and Astronautics) and others to create an open source translator project between China’s Unified Office Format (UOF) and the Ecma Open XML File Formats. In addition, the company announced the beta release of translation tools for Windows® XP, and the 2003 and 2007 versions of Microsoft® Office Excel® and Microsoft Office PowerPoint® as part of the Open XML Translator project launched in July 2006. | ||
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| #1 By 28801 (65.90.202.10) at 5/21/2007 2:23:12 PM |
| What does Latch have to say about this? |
| #2 By 15406 (216.191.227.68) at 5/22/2007 9:08:05 AM |
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#2: What would you do without me???
It's hard to tell form the press release, but my guess would be that, as usual, when MS talks about interoperability, it usually means making $FOO more interoperable with MS, and not the other way around. This tool probably converts from UOF to MSXML. Does it convert from MSXML to UOF? Does it integrate with Office, or is it a cheezy external plugin? Remember, MS can't reinforce the monopoly with open standards so it makes sense to convert from open standards to closed instead of the other way around. |
| #3 By 28801 (65.90.202.10) at 5/22/2007 11:12:16 AM |
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#2: First - this is an open source project so it is up to slick developers like you to make it bidirectional if it already isn't.
Second - The article states that this will be available via an add-in. My question to you is what makes an add-in or a plug-in "cheesy"? If it works then what’s the problem? I assume that if someone is savvy enough to want to use UOF or ODF with MS Word then they are savvy enough to install a plug-in, provolone and all. I could be wrong, but I'm fairly sure you have trumpeted the virtues of Firefox on more than one occasion. FF is probably the most plug-in centric application available. What makes plug-ins OK for one application but not OK for another? I know - when the other application is a Microsoft application then hypocrisy is the norm. |
| #4 By 15406 (216.191.227.68) at 5/22/2007 11:50:31 AM |
| #3: What makes it cheesy (or cheezy, take your pick) is if it's external to Office. Can you click File - Save As... - UOF? Or do you have to save it in MSXML, then run the util to do the conversion? This looks like MS' ODF plugin all over again. I'm not against plugins as they can be quite useful. What I'm against is more MS nonsense, where they pay lip service to doing something they don't really want to do and then they do it purposely half-assed. While it would be trivial for MS to bake this support into Office, they don't want UOF or ODF to gain any traction compared to MSXML. So they make everything except MSXML external (can you save as PDF in Office 2007?), knowing that most lazy users will save in the easiest format to save in that doesn't require extra steps after the fact. |
| #5 By 15406 (216.191.227.68) at 5/22/2007 11:55:04 AM |
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#3: btw I did want to mention that I appreciate all the work you went to to build up that mighty strawman. You looked real tough when you tore him down too.
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| #6 By 28801 (65.90.202.10) at 5/22/2007 1:46:42 PM |
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I don’t have anything against FF. I use it occasionally. You mentioned plug-ins as being cheesy. I wanted to know why you think they are alright in one app and not another. That’s hardly a strawman, just part of a discussion. Also, since this is an Open Source app, wouldn’t it be the legions of programmer’s responsibility to integrate it properly with Office so that after installing the add-in the “Save-As” option would be available?
Save as PDF: http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=4d951911-3e7e-4ae6-b059-a2e79ed87041&DisplayLang=en It seems to me that you are judging software before you’ve even seen it. That would make you a software racist, or in Seinfeld land an Anti-Bytite |
| #7 By 15406 (216.191.227.68) at 5/22/2007 2:54:40 PM |
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#6: Sigh. "Cheezy plugin" = plugin that is cheezy. When you use an adjective, the adjective defines the object as a subset of the type. For example, all humans are human. Stupid humans fall into a subset of all humans. When you use the term 'stupid humans', you aren't implying that all humans are stupid, just some. Likewise, when I use 'cheezy plugin' I'm talking about a plugin that's cheezy for some reason, and not that all plugins are cheezy. Get it now??
As for your last sentence, those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. I assume it will be cheezy because: a) it's from MS so it will be complete crap until at least v3 (unless they bought the plugin from another company) b) it's something MS really doesn't want to do c) there is a history with MS and half-assed support for 3rd-party technology. I can't wait until Step 3, when MS extinguishes China... |
| #8 By 28801 (65.90.202.10) at 5/22/2007 3:33:20 PM |
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You still didn’t refute the facts:
This is an Open Source app - it’s not from Microsoft. So you were wrong! There is a plug-in for PDFs and it seems to work pretty well. So you were wrong again! Oh, and thanks for the basic English lesson. I think I have it now. If I use an adjective like lame in conjunction with Activewin user, then that would define a subset of ActiveWin users. In this case only 1, and I think everyone knows who that is. This post was edited by rxcall on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 at 16:09. |
| #9 By 23275 (24.179.4.158) at 5/22/2007 7:35:35 PM |
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#8, You interpreted Latch correctly the first time, I think. He meant to convey that unless Microsoft Office had the capability baked in and lent itself to all forms open, that no plug-in, however well devised, would be good enough.
Needing to back fill the glaring hole in his logic, that you identified, he had to come up with something, and while I can give him some credit for writing on his feet, so to speak, you still took the round, and according to my card, lead the scrap two crushing blows to zero. This post was edited by lketchum on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 at 19:36. |
| #10 By 28801 (65.90.202.10) at 5/22/2007 8:02:29 PM |
| #9 I was just hoping Latch would provide something to buttress his arguments like what MS plug-ins he has used that are cheesy. However, as usual he provides nothing. And when you try to get more from him he gets belligerent. That combined with his pomposity makes it difficult to take him seriously. |
| #11 By 15406 (74.104.251.89) at 5/22/2007 8:21:00 PM |
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#9,10: Flame on, I can take it. I didn't know this new plugin was an OSS project so that's my bad for not digging deeper. However, I have no experience with the PDF plugin, and never said anything about it other than asking a question, so I'm not sure how I'm wrong there. Also, I never said any particular plugin from MS was cheezy. If you like, I can start putting words in your mouth and we can continue to argue what the other didn't say.
Ketchum: Close, but not quite. I don't care one bit if the plugin is OSS. All I expect, with MS talking the talk about interoperability, is that this plugin allows the user to File - Open - UOF Document and File - Save - UOF Document. Also let the file format be set as default so that you don't alway have to make the extra step of picking it from a list. Is that so much to ask? Don't make the user take too many extra steps to use the format. |
| #12 By 28801 (68.81.50.122) at 5/22/2007 9:38:29 PM |
| Hey Ketchum... did you hear that sound? That was the distinctive sound of backpedaling! |
| #13 By 23275 (24.179.4.158) at 5/22/2007 10:23:34 PM |
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#11, yeah, we know... you want private, and profitable companies to essentially emasculate themselves to prop up those that don't deserve it. You can say it is in the name of interoperability, but that isn't the case. I just don't buy it - you seem to want all the richness that Microsoft Office provides, but you want it extended to those that didn't produce that richness. So when a company like Microsoft offers a capability that does support interoperability, that isn't enough. You think that business owners give a rip about saving in an open file format? If someone can't read their "Word" or "Excel" file, Windows provides them a free viewer automatically. That's the reality. If I were to push UOF, and state, well heck yeah, Mr. Customer, don't you realize how important transferring documents in an open format is?
The guy would laugh me out of his office like some kind of nut job. It's just not relevant. Many do save as .PDF in Word 2007, but only because they assess such documents are less likely to be edited - while silly, that is the thinking that exists, because far fewer people have a .PDF editor and most that do, have a few copies of Adobe Acrobat 5, or 6, but everyone has MS Office of at least XP/2002, or 2003 and nearly all I have seen want Office 2007. #12, Yeah, but I think he's going to have to settle for the bronze. |
| #14 By 15406 (216.191.227.68) at 5/23/2007 8:42:30 AM |
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#12: Now you're starting to get into the realms of stupidity only inhabited by parkkker and his lackeys. If you really want a fight on your hands, I'm in. Show me where I'm backpedalling on anything. Show me where I said anything that you are accusing me of saying. Clarifying someone else's mistaken assumptions is not backpedaling, no matter how desperate you are to slap me down.
#13: No, you don't know jack but you think you do. And every time I nail you on something, what I get back is war stories and paragraph after paragraph of other irrelevant tangents. Any time I bring up MS bad deeds or some other MS Evil of the Day story, all I get from you is silence, but I understand you're contractually obligated to kiss the MS butt and ignore the smell. What I want is what I told you in my last post. I'm not sure how that 'emasculates' MS or props up other companies since MS is doing this willingly, but I'm used to the AW MS Apologist crowd putting words in my mouth. If MS claims to support something, let the proof of the pudding be in the eating. No, I don't want "all the richness of Office", I want the plugin to make it just as easy to use this new format as the existing ones. Otherwise, it's just more MS posturing. And no, I don't think US business owners care about UOF, but that's another irrelevant tangent, isn't it? It sounds like you think this plugin is a waste of time because it doesn't serve US business interests. I can't believe I've seen the day when ketchum didn't tow the MS party line. |
| #15 By 28801 (65.90.202.10) at 5/23/2007 9:37:56 AM |
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First backpedal:
From Post #2 “This tool probably converts from UOF to MSXML. Does it convert from MSXML to UOF? Does it integrate with Office, or is it a cheezy external plugin?” From Post #11 “I didn't know this new plugin was an OSS project so that's my bad for not digging deeper” Dig deeper!!! How bout just reading the damn press release??? Second backpedal: From Post #4 “So they make everything except MSXML external (can you save as PDF in Office 2007?)” I took that as a rhetorical question that you used to support you argument, and I stand by that. From Post #11 “However, I have no experience with the PDF plugin” Third backpedal From Post #11 “Also, I never said any particular plugin from MS was cheesy” No you just use sweeping generalizations that all MS products are cheesy: From Post #7 “I assume it will be cheezy because: a) it's from MS so it will be complete crap until at least v3 (unless they bought the plugin from another company) b) it's something MS really doesn't want to do c) there is a history with MS and half-assed support for 3rd-party technology. I can't wait until Step 3, when MS extinguishes China...” This post was edited by rxcall on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 at 09:39. |
| #16 By 28801 (65.90.202.10) at 5/23/2007 9:45:26 AM |
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Nuff said!
But we all know Last Word Latch will be back. |
| #17 By 37047 (216.191.227.68) at 5/23/2007 9:52:10 AM |
| The key difference between an Office plugin and a natively supported format is that a natively supported format can be saved as in the "Save As..." dialog panel. A format supported through a plugin, such as PDF, ODF, UOF, etc., is that it has its own "Save As xxx" menu item in the Files menu tree. So, if one is used to doing a Save As... from the keyboard, by using the <Alt>-F A key combination, then they will not be able to save in these formats. And hopefully, the plugin will be able to save back with the File->Save menu item whatever format the file is saved in. Otherwise, any changes will require several step, not a simple <Ctrl>-S key combination. |
| #18 By 15406 (216.191.227.68) at 5/23/2007 10:08:02 AM |
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#15: You need to look up the definition of 'backpedal'. I can admit when I'm wrong, as I did when I said I didn't know the tool was OSS, but that's not backpedaling.
From Webster's "Backpedal: to retreat or move backward Notice it has no bearing on whether you are right or wrong, just whether or not you are reversing your position. I'm not reversing anything as what we are doing is speculating based on the limited information in the press release. My question about the PDF plugin was legit as I don't have Office 2007 nor the PDF plugin, and have used neither. Your assumption that I was asking a rhetorical question was incorrect. For the record, my attempts to clarify your mistaken assumptions is not backpedaling. I'm not reversing my position on anything. I'm reversing your incorrect interpretation of my position. Your attempts to embarrass me are curious, at best. |
| #19 By 15406 (216.191.227.68) at 5/23/2007 10:09:31 AM |
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Nuff said!
But we all know Last Word rxcall will be back. This post was not edited by Latch on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 at 11:09. |
| #20 By 28801 (65.90.202.10) at 5/23/2007 10:14:00 AM |
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Sentinel:
Just checked the Word 2007 PDF Plug-in - it is accessible from the standard save as dialog. You can select it in the "Save as type" drop down. However, you cannot select PDF as the default "save as" format. This post was edited by rxcall on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 at 10:50. |
| #21 By 28801 (65.90.202.10) at 5/23/2007 10:17:26 AM |
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#19: I thought I read somewhere that you were from Canada. I worked with a guy from Canada a couple of years ago.
He was an ass too! |
| #22 By 23275 (24.179.4.158) at 5/23/2007 10:30:34 AM |
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#17, ALT-F in Microsoft Office 2007 opens the Office Start Orb, File Menu. On that menu, ATL-F also highlights "F" and "W" [for print options] and I and X for Word Options, or Exit - pressing "F" again, while holding the ALT key, opens the Save As...options, which include plug-ins like, "PDF, or XPS" ***If one continues to hold down the ALT key as they press, F, then F again, [ALT-F-F], they will see the options for file format save as, W-Word Document, T-Word Template, 9-Word 97-2203 Document, P-PDF or XPS, and O-Other So for example, saving as a PDF would be ALT-F-F-P
Save as plug-in options appear under the Office orb and default save option formats are located under the button, "Word Options | Save Sub-Topic <button> | Save files in this format <drop down> Is that what you meant, or is there another way that you would like to see? Thanks, L @ #14, See above - and please actually try it out and then comment. I think what bugs you is that I only post about what I actually do and see in the field - be it yesterday, or many years ago. I try to ensure what I share has a pragmatic base - "that which constitutes proof" Without that basis, one is most often left with dogma, the very essence of arrogance - or a belief for which there is no supporting evidence. I suspect that if there is enough customer demand, ALT-F-F-O options will include support for UOF, etc... However, how plug-ins work, specifically, is going to be up to the third party vendor [where applicable] and how well they leverage the Office 2007 SDK - which exposes APIs that allow devs to access save as options as I shared above. In fact, the entire ribbon UI has been opened and is available for developers - even for non-Office apps. Finally, when we build a computer of any type, we slip the save as options into the builds for customers before we deliver - including save as PDF or XPS. We do this to provide as many options as possible for our customers, and I suspect that in most large enterprises, where the need exists, the Office deployment kit is used to do the same things. This post was edited by lketchum on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 at 10:32. |
| #23 By 15406 (216.191.227.68) at 5/23/2007 10:56:27 AM |
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#22: I'd be happy to try it out if only I had Office 2007. But I don't, so I won't. I use OpenOffice at home, and my company uses about 3% of the functionality of Office 2003 so we're in no rush to upgrade. Nothing about you really bugs me, but I do admit it can be taxing trying to debate with partisans that are unable to ever acknowledge anything negative related to MS throughout its history. It usually turns out more like the Argument Clinic or the MS Spin Zone.
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| #24 By 37047 (216.191.227.68) at 5/23/2007 11:23:04 AM |
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#20: I only have Office 2003, so I can only base my info on that version, and the Adobe PDF plugin fro that version. My understanding, though, was that plugins could not access and thus insert themselves into the "Save As..." file type drop down list. That would be cool if I am wrong, and that can indeed be done.
On the other topic, are you saying that all Canadians are asses? If so, then I must take great offence to that statement. |
| #25 By 37047 (216.191.227.68) at 5/23/2007 11:28:07 AM |
| #22: What I meant was what I said. Pretend we are talking about someone who is new to Office 2007, say from an Office 2003 background, haing used it for the previous 5 years. I am using Office 2003, so I am not familiar with any new shortcuts they may have added to the interface. Anything new added to Office 2007 has not been mentioned by me, or even implied, as I am not using it yet. |
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