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EU Warns Microsoft About Windows Vista | |
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| Time: 00:00 EST/05:00 GMT | News Source: WinInformant | Posted By: Michael Dragone | ||
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In a letter recently sent to the software giant, the EU's top antitrust regulator, Neelie Kroes, warns that Microsoft will not be allowed to sell Windows Vista in Europe if it comes bundled with certain features. While the exact feature-set the EU is concerned about is currently unknown, Ms. Kroes' spokesperson mentioned that the EU specifically mentioned Internet search features, Internet Explorer 7, digital rights management technologies, and Microsoft's new Metro feature, which will compete with Adobe PDF. | ||
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| #1 By 7711 (12.107.81.66) at 3/30/2006 6:06:03 AM |
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"While the exact feature-set the EU is concerned about is currently unknown"
So how are you supposed to address that crap? If the EU has concerns, let MS know what they are so they can at least address them. "Mentioning" certain items isn't the same as telling them specifically what is the problem. Another version of Vista on the way???... Vista EU...it has the same features as Windows 1.0, but in a slightly prettier package. ;) |
| #2 By 15406 (216.191.227.68) at 3/30/2006 8:46:45 AM |
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#1; Just because Thurrott says the feature set is unknown, that may only apply to him and us. I'm sur ethe EU has told MS what its concerns are.
#2: Because Apple isn't a monopoly that is illegally using its monopoly status to foist its own wares on consumers to the detriment of competitors, that's why. |
| #3 By 23275 (68.17.42.38) at 3/30/2006 10:09:18 AM |
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#3, So.... against market demands that drive what products do have [Vista], a company is expected to gut its products as directed by a third party to insulate inferior products within the same market [Vista n]? or face serious fines?
No part of any anti-trust resolution has ever forced a company to take its products down - I mean, AT laws applied to MS were the same as applied to Standard Oil - was standard oil ever prevented from later adding detergents from its gasoline as market demands for cleaner burning fuels emerged? [not that those laws were at all applicable]. I don't know if you've ever lived in Europe, but once you get past all the history and culture [which is a lot to appreciate], you see how day to day life is for most Europeans - it sux. They are the most melancholy group of people I have ever seen and they deserve better. Everything is so basic and so costly - it shocks Americans. It reflects an economy that is what it is.... flat on its back...strangled by the same idiots that "STILL" maintain North Sea Cod tarrifs on Norway and carrot excise taxes on all but French carrots - seems small until you recall that many people died in riots over carrot farming... The market decided and people voted with their spending choices. In Europe a few white men like to decide what is best for all and end up isolating their own people in tiny little apartments with no central hot water [the norm], and one 9" TV that they tax the snott out of. I taught German kids in French about the emerging EU from the merger between the EFTA and EG - as it became what it now is - the EEA, or European Economic Area [that is what they call it]. The goal was to unify a 365 million person trading group to compete with North American and Asian markets - it isn't working for most Europeans - because they must compete and that means people have to work at least as hard and in a way that is at least as open as their global competition - where Americans work like mad dogs and Asians even harder. The people of Europe don't need protection from Microsoft, or Sony, or GM - they need protection from their own leaders. The sad part is that as one sits and tips a coffee with your average European citizen, that person while they will agree, will also resign themselves to what they accept - that nothing can be done - until the next "war" that will change/fix everything.... - that by the way was the saddest thing I have ever heard a group of 20 something students conclude. Resignation - to an authority perfectly content to hold most people down - while they enjoy the best that is available. Just once, I'd like Microsoft or any company facing this, to simply say, "Fine - we won't sell here... have a nice day and goodbye..." I mean, don't you guys ever push back from business that just does not fit well for you or your people - I walk away, no matter the revenue numbers, if it isn't right for us. |
| #4 By 15406 (216.191.227.68) at 3/30/2006 2:06:02 PM |
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#4: In a monopoly situation, yes. Understand that I'm not debating the validity of the law, but it's there and must be obeyed. I'm also not debating the political climate of Europe as I have little practical experience in that area. Microsoft is free to leave the European market if they so choose. If they want to play in Europe, they have to play by the rules. Sometimes the rules seem stacked against MS, but that's simply because MS is in the sole position of having the desktop computing global market in a chokehold. I shudder to think how they would behave if there were NO gov't oversight of what they're doing.
#5: Is this a joke? I call them overpriced toys that I have no need for. However, from what I've read, Apple is now coming under antitrust pressure to open up iTunes. It seems that Apple has finally reached the point of critical mass for online music and now they are being scrutinized for it. There are rules in place to prevent those that have monopolies to prevent them from abusing their position. Believe it or not, this is good for the consumer as it helps breed competition which results in more product choice and reasonable prices. |
| #5 By 20505 (216.102.144.11) at 3/30/2006 5:54:57 PM |
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#6: If MS had "no gov't oversight" they would still be trying to do what all businesses try to do, that is to sell the most products to the largest number of people while maximizing their profits.
Just so you know there is no historical situation that is comparable to the “MS monopoly”. When Standard Oil was found to be a monopoly they essentially controlled complete access to a resource that no one else could obtain. Ditto ATT, they controlled the wire that all phone calls were made on. MS by no stretch of the imagination controls the only OS for computers. They are being singled out for being better at it that anyone else. Perhaps you guys are just too young to remember the bad old days of personal computing, before MS started making all hardware and software vendors play nice in the sand box. Remember not being able to use data from Lotus in Word Perfect without writing it down of a piece of paper? Remember when you purchased a peripheral printer and had to worry if you could even get it to work on your IBM PC? Even now I remember thinking Symphony was a great program because it was an integrated program. So let’s go back to the good old days. An OS with no built in word processor, no calculator, no program for connecting to the internet, no security features or a GUI for that matter. Yes let’s go back to the chaos that defined the early days of computing. Then all OS’s will act like Linux. What a laugh. |
| #6 By 12071 (203.185.215.149) at 3/30/2006 6:51:58 PM |
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#2 Rules change slightly when you're a monopoly and you've been found guilty (in both the US and EU) of abusing that monopoly.
#4 Thanks for your "insight" into Europe and Europeans - it is true what they say, opinions are like arse holes - everybody's got one! "Just once, I'd like Microsoft or any company facing this, to simply say, "Fine - we won't sell here... have a nice day and goodbye..."" You know what... I TOO would love to see Microsoft do this! I too would love to see the shareholders response to Microsoft doing this! I'm 100% behind them trying to wield their monopoly blackmail bullshit on another Government! Sadly, they won't do this so we're both going to be dissapointed. #7 "An OS with no built in word processor, no calculator, no program for connecting to the internet, no security features or a GUI for that matter." Built in is fine - but allow the user to remove the built-in programs or better yet, like the OS that you despise so much, offer the user a choice when they're installing the OS on which programs they would like to have. |
| #7 By 23275 (68.17.42.38) at 3/30/2006 9:51:07 PM |
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#8, Users may remove "Windows Components" and also set preferences - very granularly.
Chris, you must be very young - that's all one can conclude - offer an opinion sure, but knock off the nonsense...I ask you to make some sense and support your opinions with something...facts, experience, anything at all.... Oldog is dead on right! Hence my comparison to Standard - which was the basis in law used to rule against MS - it is now, and was then, wrong. MS could not have been guilty of monopoly - because they were not and are not - there is plenty of competition - that competition just has not performed as well. I too and not at all too fondly, recall the earliest days of computing - when crazily all apps had to have their own drivers built in - just to run! It was a mess. Microsoft fixed that and "THAT" is why they won - they built a platform! They are still the only company that has a "PLATFORM" - all others just borrow from it. |
| #8 By 12071 (203.185.215.149) at 3/30/2006 10:15:59 PM |
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#9 "Users may remove "Windows Components" and also set preferences - very granularly."
Does lying to yourself work? Do you believe this statement now that you've repeated it enough times? Or is the devil in the details? Are you going to continually redefine what constitutes a "Windows Component" Users cannot remove IE, users aren't given the choice of whether to install a particular component or not. Windows *can* be as granular, Microsoft just chooses not to make it so for various reasons. "I ask you to make some sense and support your opinions with something...facts, experience, anything at all...." Oh please, i've heard you rattle off your opinions about Europe and Europeans before on several occasions, it always amounts to the same thing. If you want me to bore you to death by telling you stories of my experience then I can do so, but I'd rather not. Like I said... I'm 100% behind you... I think Microsoft should pull out of Europe completely! I think they should pull out of every country but the US! |
| #9 By 32132 (64.180.219.241) at 3/30/2006 10:57:41 PM |
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The point isn't rather or not you can remove or not install Windows Components (you can actually go into Add/Remove Windows Components and remove or not install many componenets).
The point is rather or not the the EU are corrupt anti-Microsoft bigots like Chris who wish to redefine what is allowed in an OS or not on some bizarre whim. The people of Europe don't want the "N" version of Windows. And barely any of them want Linux on the desktop either. They want Windows and all the features. I think the US should just arbitrarily fine SAP and every other EU software vendor for putting "X" in their product (where "X" is an arbitrary function pulled out of a hat). It would make as much sense as what the EU is doing. |
| #10 By 23275 (68.17.42.38) at 3/30/2006 11:47:03 PM |
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#11, Ditto that.
That was my point - Chris is just like the EU leadership - he wants to decide for us and if we do not agree - he wants to punish us. That is called despotism. There are 30 commercial operating systems one may buy. Big OEM's - small boutique specialty builders like ourselves... we could build, market and sell whatever we wish.....BUT [Chris, pay attention...], we build what our customers ask for and they ask for Windows, Office 2003, MSSQL, Exchange, IIS 6, etc.. - they have NEVER asked us or any of the other 29 OS'es. Last check, the EU Commission hasn't built a thing - unless you count record levels of poverty and unemployment! |
| #11 By 12071 (203.158.60.13) at 3/31/2006 6:34:41 AM |
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#12 You appear to have the same problem that Parkkker does, a general lack of comprehension skills. I'm not trying to decide anything for YOU or anyone else, I'm putting across my opinion without slagging off the EU/US or the democrats/republicans or whatever else will get people's blood pumping. YOU are free to use whatever you like, however you like, just like I'm free to ask for and expect choice without you redefining the term.
And it's interesting that you bring up despotism, as that's exactly what Microsoft would be doing if they listened to your advice on pulling out of Europe! "EU Commission hasn't built a thing" Are you now comparing yourself to the EC or are you comparing Microsoft to the EC? Not that either make any sense but I'm trying to see where you're going with this. The US Gov. hasn't "built anything either" but they still took Microsoft to court and found them guilty of abusing their monopoly. What they didn't follow through on was the punishment - it's a good thing there was a change in Government which made all those punishments go away rather quickly hey! |
| #12 By 12071 (203.158.60.13) at 3/31/2006 6:52:23 AM |
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#12 By now I'm almost completely convinced that Microsoft pay you to post your pro-Microsoft comments all over the place so I figured I'd help you out to show there's no hard feelings.
You should now focus all your energies on the Judge that presided over the following case and start harrasing her. After all, how dare she rule against the faultless Microsoft and as a bonus Microsoft should pay you a bit more! http://www.itworld.com/Man/2699/060330mssubpoena/ "As a matter of comity, this court presumes the neutrality of both the DG-Competition and the European Commission." She also contrasted the "adversarial" nature of the U.S. legal system with the "inquisitional" nature of the civil law system of which the European Commission is a part. In the latter, the judicial officer is more actively engaged in evidence gathering, Trumbull noted. The judge described the subpoenas as constituting "an attempt to circumvent specific restrictions the European Commission has placed on Microsoft's right to obtain certain kinds of information." She added, "As a matter of comity, this court is unwilling to order discovery when doing so will interfere with the European Commission's orderly handling of its own enforcement proceedings."" |
| #13 By 12071 (203.158.60.13) at 3/31/2006 7:03:17 AM |
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#12 I found something else I thought you'd love, especially given your comment "don't you guys ever push back from business that just does not fit well for you or your people - I walk away, no matter the revenue numbers, if it isn't right for us.".
A study by Forrester Research (you should know them, Microsoft has paid them several times to do research for them) - http://www.joystiq.com/2006/03/30/sony-trounces-msft-and-nintendo-in-brand-trust-survey/ has found that American's trust Sony more than Microsoft even after Sony installed a rootkit on their pc's! In fact, America's find Microsoft to be the least trusted brand (well 20 out of 22 overall) yet they continue to use it! What is it that you said about people pushing back? Oh that's right, it's hard to push back when the least trusted brand is continually abusing their monopoly! |
| #14 By 15406 (216.191.227.68) at 3/31/2006 8:29:50 AM |
| #7: a company need not have 100% of the market to be considered a monopoly. Yes, I'm aware of Linux and MacOS, and all the other alternative OSes, but MS still has 90+% of the market. They are a monopoly and are being held accountable for their actions abusing their monopoly status - not because they're so wonderful as you and others like Parkkker seem to believe. I do credit MS with some of the positive things they've done over the past 20 years, but I'm not the type to give them a pass for all their evil just because they've done a few good things for personal computing. |
| #15 By 32132 (64.180.219.241) at 3/31/2006 10:25:07 AM |
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The EU position is straightforward. Bundling a media player with Windows is illegal, so therefore Microsoft must give away all of its Intellectual Property.
That is out and out bigotry. And Chris, its very fitting the US judge used the used the term "inquisitional". I'm sure many judges fantasize about doing away with lawyers that screw things up by bringing up unpleasant facts and would prefer to play the role of judge jury and exectutioner so they can rid the world of people and companies they hate. Remember the Spanish Inquisition. That was fair! The Spanish Inquisition was a historical institution founded under Ferdinand and Isabella of Castile in 1478 to suppress heresies within the Catholic Church. The Inquisition was primarily under the control of the Spanish monarch, with only the Inquisitor General appointed by the Holy See. In the history of the Catholic Inquisition, the Spanish Inquisition is especially well-known, particularly in the nature of the auto de fe, or trials, of supposedly converted Muslims, Jews, and Illuminists. This Inquisition also gave rise to the Peruvian Inquisition and the Mexican Inquisition, which continued until those countries split off from Spain. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition This post was edited by NotParker on Friday, March 31, 2006 at 14:16. |
| #16 By 23275 (68.17.42.38) at 3/31/2006 1:18:37 PM |
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the Spanish Inquisition was an act by what was in effect a political party - it was about control and is a good example of what and how the EU leadership thinks and acts.... "We know best - what is best for all - we few... and we few will punish anyone that does not conform...."
That is despotism - driven by a lust for power and greed. #13, On the contrary - just about the entire stack used to support the NET was built by the UIS Govt. In fact, as one of the many voting members that did vote for "Controlled/Staged release" of NET technologies, I in fact KNOW what the US Govt. built and what its citizens funded. Those technologies were ported through the national science foundation in Oct 1992 and tne onto Govt. controlled monopolies - which are by the way - entirely legal - a company can be so good that it does dominate a market and many do. Kodak in medical imaging... Mitre Corp... now Mitre.ORG was among them - a former Govt. contractor where many old friends still work.... is another example. HTML itself was a take-off on a man/machine readable messaging format written in the late 70's at the U of Maryland Munich campus - it used formatted TAGS to structure messages that the IMPS could parse. I know, I worked on it with the son of of the founders of Kapro. Chris, this is a small world - tiny. There is a record - and not much fact is found in the case against MS. That was the sickest abuse of legal power I have ever seen - well... next to that wielded by the EU. Their envy of the US and Americans is a hurdle they struggle with each day - I saw it over and over.... a lot lile Kerry's, "how can I be getting beat by this idiot..." comment [getting you hat handed to you was more accurate Senator...] - it's the same kind of thinking as the EU and frankly you display. You cannot argue with what is a matter of record... MS is successful. The US economy is successful. The EU economy stinks and you're pissed at the planet [or sure seem to be]. Bouncing through the day - optimistic and bright about what might be accomplished, I, most Americans and yes, Microsoft, look at things a lot differently - it does appear we see needs, do stuff and make a posititive difference. I just fail to see how gutting an OS's features against the will of the people/market serves the interests of the people/market. If anyone does not like it - then build a better platform, or shut the hell up. Same is true of my small end of it..... compete with me by being better and offering a better product connected to better services, or do less well opposite the choices customers make. Microsoft evil.... ? Based upon what - defining how its "Brand" is to be used? No OEM is forced to use an MS Equipment CAL! I'm not! In fact, I buy only boxed retail from my distributors, because I build a machine that will last 8 years or more and I want to be able to modify any part of it for my customers. Yeah, the systems cost a lot more - but..... they arrive turn-key and ready for first use - a totally different and more complete approach suitable for our market and totally independent of any OEM Equip CAL. Dell could do that, too , but as a direct to market seller, that is not their model - they are about volume. The markets have many needs - fulfilled by many people and MS has NEVER forced any of us to do a dern thing. All they have ever done is frankly underwrite most of the technoloy revenue most of us earn - they extended their platform to all of us and in ways that make it possible for us to exist! To see it otherwise is not supportable by any set of facts. |
| #17 By 12071 (203.158.60.13) at 3/31/2006 11:35:25 PM |
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#17 " The EU position is straightforward. Bundling a media player with Windows is illegal, so therefore Microsoft must give away all of its Intellectual Property."
Are you able to, for at least once, not simplify things down to such a level where it no longer makes any sense to continue discussing it? On the topic of WMP, I have no problem with them including it with Windows - all I have ever said on that topic is that given Microsoft's position in the market (read: monopoly) then users should be given a choice on what media player is installed on their pc and if they don't want WMP then they should be able to uninstall it. Same goes for IE. I don't think you'll find very many people that disagree that an OS in 2006 should come with media playing software, internet browsing software etc. In fact, you'll probably find that most people wish a OS came with every piece of software they will ever need all for $199 (or cheaper!). The problem with that "nirvana" is that if you have a company in a position where they hold a monopoly and are illegally leveraging that monopoly to shut out 3rd party developers then you as an end user will suffer - even if you initially don't think you will ever suffer because all your software comes from one company, it all interoperates etc etc. There's a million and one examples one can give, the most obvious one is internet browsing software. The only reason Microsoft have gotten off their ass and created IE 7 is because of Firefox's success (limited success but success nontheless - you'll note that many will agree that Opera is in many ways the best browser but it has not enjoyed the same success that Firefox has). IE hasn't really changed since 5.5 and nothing has been done on it for many years (aside from patching the monthly remote hole exploits). As for the EU case, they don't want Microsoft's IP as you believe, they just want the API's to be opened up so that 3rd parties can interoperate with Windows in a "free market" sort of way. I don't think they want anything other that what you would find in an RFC or ISO/IEEE specification - i.e. 100% completely disclosed and documented specifications for a particular standard. As for the Spanish Inquisition, yes it was yet another shining moment for the Catholic Church! You have to hand it to those organised religions, and their followers - you know the kind, like your President (a Protestant) whom God speaks to! |
| #18 By 12071 (203.158.60.13) at 3/31/2006 11:45:02 PM |
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#18 "a lot lile Kerry's, "how can I be getting beat by this idiot...""
To be fair, 50% of Americans and although I don't have the exact number (but the rest of the world isn't quite as religious as the US of A) I'll estimate that a good 70% of the rest of the world think that Bush is an idiot too - so Kerry was hardly alone there! "you're pissed at the planet [or sure seem to be]." No, I'm just not getting paid to promote Microsoft on message boards. If I was I'm sure I'd be able to rattle off all sorts of wonderful stories like you do on an almost daily basis. |
| #19 By 32132 (64.180.219.241) at 4/1/2006 12:02:09 AM |
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Chris, there was no need to go on and on.
Inquisition said it all. Thanks for sharing the core truth of what the EU is up to. |
| #20 By 23275 (68.17.42.38) at 4/1/2006 12:50:52 AM |
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#19, Chris... my golly you are a naive one... The inquisition - ... there were many and the Spanish Inquisition wasn't even the largest - see, at the time there were political parties - most were tied to one church or another not just the Church of Rome [as it was called].
The point here is that these matters are a lot more complex than you are making them out to be - they are not so simple as reflecting on one bad legal ruling and using that in perpetuity to color a company - there are very fundamental differences in the way the contintents conduct business and view property. Even banking rules are quite different. You have got to get one thing down about the US - owning property is central to individual liberty - it assumed that one "will" own property. The reverse is true among EU members - where "real property" ownership is very rare. There are real issues of extra-territoriality that are at play here - MS is after all, an American company. What is wild is that "other American companies" are hiding behind the EU's skirts - while it may work, you have to understand what that behavior will do to those companies in the long run... it will destroy them in the US market as Americans detest that - can't respect it and won't deal with people who do that. It just cust too deeply across the grain. ...paid to populate these boards?.... hardly... I write here because it's a respite from the day [which is very long - 16 to 20 hours each day], and to address bunk and share what we see and do and hope that it can be of some small help to people. In cases like yours one has to put a stop to certain things... the same way I'll stop a young man and set him straight if I see him being rude, or driving dangerously - I'll stop him and cause him to think - if he's nice, I stay nice - if not, I make him play by the rules - for one reason... so he'll think.... "may be some other really determined man will get after me if I act badly...." It does work. In your case, I just can't allow such to pass - no more than I'd let your music blast in public, or allow you to drink at my kids' ballgames [not at all suggesting "you" do... - just making a comparison]. It just can't stand and won't. If I "know" what the truth is and have proven it to myself, then I'll share that which offers some benefit and as in your case, work to help you see that you need to take another look at it. About President Bush... [ from his closest secret service protector: "I have served four Presidents in my life and this President is not only the best of them, he is also the best man I have ever met." ] One of my dearest friends sister is married to the man that spoke the words above. Our President is considered to be the best man many of us have ever known. With the kind of power the US has, you have to know that deep down we could give a flip what you or anyone else thinks of us - heck, when we had no power, we didn't give a flip and that is part of the beautiful thing it is to be free. We seem to have been born with the ability to make a fist and use it - meaning, we love to compete and we love to win. Don't like it? I know. Well... too damn bad! |
| #21 By 20505 (216.102.144.11) at 4/1/2006 12:57:41 AM |
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Chris,
It may come as surprise to you that those who disagree with you are not necessarily wrong, stupid or payed off. I happen to work in a field where experts disagree routinely and there is no arbitrator for truth. It may also surprise you that these experts often have no ulterior motive and that the final arbitrator is not the marketplace but the morgue. |
| #22 By 12071 (203.158.60.13) at 4/1/2006 2:11:52 AM |
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#22 "The inquisition... most were tied to one church or another not just the Church of Rome"
Well let's see... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition "The term Inquisition refers broadly to a number of historical movements surrounding the suppression of heresy by the Roman Catholic Church. There were four major movements, starting with the Medieval Inquisition in 1184 and ending with the Spanish Inquisition in 1834." The Inquisitions alone lasted longer than the US of A has been in existance yet here you are educating us all about the might of the US because it happens to be the current super-power. Go look up the definition of arrogance, you should find a picture of yourself! "it assumed that one "will" own property. The reverse is true among EU members - where "real property" ownership is very rare" That's because the US is run under capitalism as oppose to European countries which are run under other 'isms such as Socialism. Of course some of those 'isms (in particular Communism) are used in the US to put fear into people. Not that I'm saying Socialism or Communism is the right way to go, they all have their pluses and minuses, and I've lived in a Communist state for 7 years before I was able to get out, but to simply dismiss everything other than Capitalism is as you said, naive! "MS is after all, an American company" Fantastic! And when it's doing business in the EU, it had better play along with EU law or get it's business out of there. And when it's doing business in Indonesia it better play along with their laws instead or trying to apply US law globally. "Our President is considered to be the best man many of us have ever known." And the other 50% of "you" consider him to be an idiot. "kind of power the US has, you have to know that deep down we could give a flip what you or anyone else thinks of us" See that's the thing... you DO care! That's why you get so upset and start renaming French Fries "Freedom Fries"! Such acts automatically show several things to the rest of the world. 1) You have no idea about history and geography (Fries are from Belgium!) 2) With all the power that you have (and you have been and are a clear world power... no other country is even close!) you still get hurt when the French won't bend over backwards when you say so (like Mr Blair, Mr Howard etc.). So you can keep telling yourself that you don't care, but your actions say otherwise. What you DO have trouble understanding is that the rest of the world doesn't give a toss about YOU. No-one is jealous of your success or power or anything else (such as the state of education in your country). Iraqis doesn't hate your freedom! We just get pissed off when your arrogance gets out of line and you start imposing your way of life, your rules, your laws etc on the rest of the world. We'll live the way we want to live and you can live the way you want to live - that means not invading countries for oil with outright lies and fake evidence of WMD's which you're yet to find - maybe a Where's Wally book will help! "We seem to have been born with the ability to make a fist and use it " You seem to forget about the origin of the US of A... you're just decendents of Europeans - well the nutty religious ones at least. It's not as if you're some special race of people that just came about out of nowhere! #23 That doesn't come as a suprise to me... my beliefs about lketchum's true motives are based on the comments he's made here for several months now. Whether he agrees or disagrees with me is irrelevant - in actual fact I'd prefer that he disagree as then we can discuss the issue at hand rather than patting each other on the back. |
| #23 By 32132 (64.180.219.241) at 4/1/2006 10:45:03 AM |
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Chris the hate monger loves it when the Inquisition decides to get revenge on the USA because Microsoft had the temerity to bundle a media player with their OS.
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| #24 By 23275 (68.17.42.38) at 4/1/2006 8:54:04 PM |
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Chris... Wikipedia...? C'mon, young man.... That is a non-source if there ever was one - yes, some fact, but hardly an end all source. Ridiculous.
And... massive difference...we didn't want the empire we ended up with... we just wanted to be left alone. The rest of the planet would allow that - so we smoked it. The truest test of any great nation and especially this one.. is its restraint. "if" we wanted it, we'd simply take it all. Every BIT of information that travels the net passes via our RNS systems - trust that we'll never let that go, either [I threw my voting flag when it came ot that point - rather than just hold it down and the rest of the room followed suite - That is as the two voting groups weighed in on whether to release the stuff that makes your posts possible these days]. We are decendents of many people - and from many we still decend - 11 million new Americans last year alone and they all share one thing... being an American is a political existence [not religious], and it mandates personal liberty and personal accountability. So, it is vulgar to have a Govt. involved in all but very basic things in our lives - as that involvement increases, the more we lose and the poorer we become - it is simple math - if Govt. spends 6 dollars of every 10 made....well, it's obvious - one will run out pretty quick. If Govt. spends 6 our of every 10 on 1 percent of the people - you have a Communist State - Red Fascisim, really, or some form of solcialist democracy where leaders represent largely "their" interests - e.g., Europe. 94% of American Counties voted Republican - that is really where Govt. works best - at its lowest levels. Tiny slivers of American territory actually vote Dem - they are mapped according to where votes are purchased with entitlement dollars - NY, CA, and areas along the MS River in the south and around Chicago, IL. Pretty narrow by any standard - in thinking and most all else. The rest of the country works to pay for it - where more than 90% are employed by business owners with fewer than 25 employees - so here, Chris, guys like me run the show - we earned it - we fought for it - built it - earned it and fund its taxes. I fought Red Fascist Despots for more than 20 years - hated what they did to people then and still do and I'm glad they're gone for the most part. Don't hate you, just see that you are really naive and likely very young. Both are fine, and you are to be respected for stepping up and taking a cut at the ball - takes guts. OldDog is right, around here - and especially encouraged in my company, people disagree allthe time. The better of them keep it clean and do not make it personal - the Dems around us seem to have gone the other way and without realizing it, they lose any purchase they might otherwise gain. We are a special race of people - the most special - but geography, religion, race, sex, etc... have dork to do with it.... we are of one political mindset that says: "Man was created to be free and exercise free will - and be held to account for what he does and does not do." One day I hope we are all Americans. |
| #25 By 23275 (68.17.42.38) at 4/1/2006 8:54:09 PM |
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Chris... Wikipedia...? C'mon, young man.... That is a non-source if there ever was one - yes, some fact, but hardly an end all source. Ridiculous.
And... massive difference...we didn't want the empire we ended up with... we just wanted to be left alone. The rest of the planet would allow that - so we smoked it. The truest test of any great nation and especially this one.. is its restraint. "if" we wanted it, we'd simply take it all. Every BIT of information that travels the net passes via our RNS systems - trust that we'll never let that go, either [I threw my voting flag when it came ot that point - rather than just hold it down and the rest of the room followed suite - That is as the two voting groups weighed in on whether to release the stuff that makes your posts possible these days]. We are decendents of many people - and from many we still decend - 11 million new Americans last year alone and they all share one thing... being an American is a political existence [not religious], and it mandates personal liberty and personal accountability. So, it is vulgar to have a Govt. involved in all but very basic things in our lives - as that involvement increases, the more we lose and the poorer we become - it is simple math - if Govt. spends 6 dollars of every 10 made....well, it's obvious - one will run out pretty quick. If Govt. spends 6 our of every 10 on 1 percent of the people - you have a Communist State - Red Fascisim, really, or some form of solcialist democracy where leaders represent largely "their" interests - e.g., Europe. 94% of American Counties voted Republican - that is really where Govt. works best - at its lowest levels. Tiny slivers of American territory actually vote Dem - they are mapped according to where votes are purchased with entitlement dollars - NY, CA, and areas along the MS River in the south and around Chicago, IL. Pretty narrow by any standard - in thinking and most all else. The rest of the country works to pay for it - where more than 90% are employed by business owners with fewer than 25 employees - so here, Chris, guys like me run the show - we earned it - we fought for it - built it - earned it and fund its taxes. I fought Red Fascist Despots for more than 20 years - hated what they did to people then and still do and I'm glad they're gone for the most part. Don't hate you, just see that you are really naive and likely very young. Both are fine, and you are to be respected for stepping up and taking a cut at the ball - takes guts. OldDog is right, around here - and especially encouraged in my company, people disagree allthe time. The better of them keep it clean and do not make it personal - the Dems around us seem to have gone the other way and without realizing it, they lose any purchase they might otherwise gain. We are a special race of people - the most special - but geography, religion, race, sex, etc... have dork to do with it.... we are of one political mindset that says: "Man was created to be free and exercise free will - and be held to account for what he does and does not do." One day I hope we are all Americans. |
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