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  States Say Microsoft is Stalling Again
Time: 12:23 EST/17:23 GMT | News Source: ZDNet | Posted By: Julien Jay

The nine states holding out against the proposed settlement of the landmark Microsoft antitrust case on Monday asked a federal judge to reject the software company's request to delay remedy hearings. Earlier this month, Microsoft argued that because of the gravity of the remedy nine states are asking for, the company should get more preparation time. But the nine states told U.S. District Judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly in Monday's filing that Microsoft's arguments were an unnecessary delay. "This motion is little more than a recycling of Microsoft's previously rejected arguments for delay," the states said in their filing. The states added: "It is no surprise that Microsoft would like to continue to delay the proceeding that most threatens to deprive it of the ability to engage in the practices condemned as unlawful by the Court of Appeals."

Microsoft retorted that it can hardly be accused of delay. "We are already implementing a tough settlement that goes beyond the liability found by the Appeals Court," said Jim Desler, a company spokesman. "Any delay is the fault of the non-settling states, who have gone far beyond the legitimate scope of this remedy phase and have, in essence, launched an entirely new case against the company." The company on Monday said it continued to believe that changing the current scheduling order is appropriate.

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#1 By 1658 (12.251.22.39) at 12/31/2001 2:32:38 PM
Microsoft is stalling, no one is disputing that, well of course besides them. BUT!!! There's nothing wrong with that. Microsoft knows damn well that negotiations are over. Period. So... Drag it out, let it roll, that's what I say. Screw the states. Let the states mumble jumble over this mess till they croak. Microsoft has the money and the time to let this ride now that the government has settled the case and will almost certainly get court approval from Judge Kotelly.

The states are dreaming if they think they're going to be able to challenge the government settlement and run out on their own. Any even reasonably conscious attorney knows this. The states are greedy, want their cash, are pissing away tax payer's money to begin with, and I highly doubt the 'higher-ups' managing the case have even the shallowest inkling outside their technical advisors' most likely bias opinion as to technical merits of the case.

There are really only two options here, the states settle, or they fight. One of which is highly unlikely at this stage. So either way, money will be wasted, so let it roll! Let them dig their own grave. Gates and Ballmer are grinning with pleasure over this shit, I guarantee it.

More 2 cents. Let the slander flow!!! I'm ready. :)

Happy new year everyone! I'm off to ski.

P.S. As for Ellison and McNealy... Oracle just announced 400 - 800 layoffs, and Sun Microsystem's debt has climbed to 24% of their net assets in the last 12 months. They're dirtying themselves as it is. Have no fear #2, they're in trouble and they know it.

This post was edited by aamendala on Monday, December 31, 2001 at 14:38.

#2 By 135 (209.180.28.6) at 12/31/2001 3:18:22 PM
Microsoft is not denying they are stalling... they're the ones who asked for the delay. :)


McNealy and Ellison need to focus on their own companies, focus on what they do well, focus on what they can provide value at. Realize that the market has shifted and they need to adapt.

Both companies would prefer to go back to a world of centralized Mainframes, the only difference is that they'd run Sun and Oracle... Not MVS and DB/2.

#3 By 1658 (12.251.22.39) at 12/31/2001 4:48:36 PM
"Microsoft is not denying they are stalling... they're the ones who asked for the delay. :)"

True... :)

#4 By 1845 (12.254.240.94) at 12/31/2001 8:47:16 PM
i got a 404 on that jagged

#5 By 1658 (12.251.22.39) at 12/31/2001 9:04:41 PM
#7 - While I agree with 90% of what you said (screwing McNealy, Ellison and the states :) ), the comment about you paying a higher cost does not follow logically at all. This is not directed towards you, it is my attempt to correct what I find to be a common misconception that Microsoft's continuing court battles will yield a price-gouging scenario.

Microsoft is a company that runs it's finances predicated on the idea that they want to have enough money in the bank to be able to run the company for 1 full fiscal year with standard overhead if nobody pays them. This is a statement Gates and Jon Sculley (Microsoft's former CFO) have made time and time again since Microsoft's inception. With $36.3 billion cash in the bank as of November of this year, they've far exceeded that goal.

Now... knowing that Microsoft runs their company with the basic economic principal of high-volumes @ low costs, I can almost guarantee you that your cost of product will not go up one penny.

Gates is an extremely fiscally disciplined individual and he has setup a company with people who share the same general attitude. Microsoft has a "rainy-day-fund" as many would call it that would yield the resources needed to fight this lawsuit until the Moon hits the Earth. There have been VERY few instances wherein Microsoft has increased the price of a product due to an external force or cost such as a lawsuit, economic downturn, increased labor costs or company operating costs, etc... In fact, if you look at the pricing of Microsoft's products on a price/performance yield basis, you'll find that their products have gotten significantly cheaper as the years have progressed. In fact, we saw the first increase in the price of Windows with Windows XP in 7 years and once again the primary reason for the cost increase was attributed to inflation and licensing costs of outside technologies bundled into Windows.

This lawsuit isn't exactly new. In fact, the precursor to all of it started way back in 1994 & 1995 with the Consent Decree they originally signed. Their products haven't increased in price one bit. New editions of software have become available at different pricing tiers but for the most part, the same product costs the same amount of money now as it did then.

With Microsoft's volume, even if they wanted to pay their legal costs with an increase in the retail or OEM distribution price of their software, you're looking at an increase in price of merely a few pennies based on their legal costs as of their 2nd Quarter 2001 balance sheets. Purely based on the amount of software they sell, an increase in 3 cents per copy of Microsoft Office and Windows together would yield legal fees for almost a year. (This does not include the salaries of in-house legal teams, merely outside legal costs such as Microsoft's favored law firm Sullivan & Cromwell). It does not make sense to take into account in house legal as the team rarely acquires a new member and salaries are fixed.

Take Care,
Andy

P.S. Boy am I writing novel's today! Keep those scrollbars shrinking.

This post was edited by aamendala on Monday, December 31, 2001 at 21:18.

#6 By 1295 (216.84.210.100) at 12/31/2001 10:32:22 PM
#10 & #7

One point I would like to add is, Yes we will pay for this lawsuit. In fact we have been paying for it. But, as funny as it sounds, it is not at the advancement of Microsoft's bank account. You and I are paying for these lawsuits in our Taxes. We have paid millions of dollars on a federal level and a large amount at the state level to keep these guys going after the company.

Now I agree that something needed to be done (note: MS doesn't deserve to be forced into open source or to be split up... i agree with the monetary penalties), just as in the Bill Clinton impeachment case. However, I think the people as a whole were screwed in both accounts by how much money was abolutely wasted by our federal, state and local governments. Not that voting will do much but you might want to head to the polls and take the DA's out. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if MS is just waiting till the states' next elections and see if they can do what the did on a federal level :)

Happy new year :)

P.S. Keep up the novels Andy... its nice to hear well thought out statements rather than the trolling that usually frequents these place :)

#7 By 1658 (12.251.22.39) at 1/1/2002 2:11:22 AM
Thanks for the comment Senor Humpty. I've been visiting this site for years yet notice I have very few comments. :) I tend to only post when I have the time to think up a useful response to something that might provide some brain-food for thought. :) I enjoy some good B.S. comments for entertainment but boy they get out of hand on chat boards typically. The whole "MS sucks vs. MS rules" thing is what irks me. Give it up folks... focus on developing better software and solutions instead of whining, the tools are there, use them! :) And even if you can't change something like the base OS, at least write Microsoft a feedback note. They do read them!

I've always said that if people such as many Linux bigots (those who hype Linux to the max and rip on MS but do not participate in the development of Linux one bit) that do exist out there would focus on creating better software, they'd be in a better position than they are instead of whining that they can't seem to compete against a company who constantly strives to perfect the software development process (Microsoft of course). Anyway, before Novel #3 starts, I gotta sleep! 24" new powder on the mountain tonight... gotta ski!

Happy new year everyone! United we stand...

Andy

#8 By 135 (208.50.201.48) at 1/1/2002 12:56:34 PM
Sunglasses wrote "You know who's stalling -- it's Puff Daschle -- he's blocking Bush's economic stimulus package. "

ROTFL. You obviously haven't read the GOP tax proposal. Daschle is stalling it because it's bad legislation. That's his job.

#9 By 1295 (216.84.210.100) at 1/1/2002 2:07:58 PM
#16

First off I haven't seen a 4.xxx.xxx.xxx address before so pat yourself on the back... your ip address is appealling :)

Lets address your comment:

"Well, all I have read is the states suck"

Yes... IMO all the government sucks... they are the best government so I tolerate it but somethings just get blow out of proportion.

"Pretty one-sided thinking from people who are not practicing law here"

Well I bet you thought you would win there didn't you. Well chances are there aren't any lawyers here. However, my wife is, my uncle is and I have 4 close friends who are as well. We don't all agree completely on the case but after they see the actual numbers (which you have obviously not seen) They tend to agree with my stance which is. MS is a monopoly... not by choice though. THE ONLY REAL EVIDENCE THAT THE GOVERNMENT HAS AGAINST MS IS THE EMAILS THAT SAID "We will crush Netscape" and the like. THAT IS IT. There contracts, though a little ludicrious are not grounds enough to be convicted of monopolistic practices. Every lawyer agrees with me on that account AFTER THEY NO THE FACTS.

"All I read is stuff that other people read into the case and rehashed thinking. Or some PR job performed by MS. "

Blah Blah Blah

"If some of you think for one second that MS hasn't played dirty somewhere in this case, wake up! They all play dirty"

I'll just let you think you are the genious that came up with that one. Apparently you are new here. Those of us who make educated comments will tell you we have been saying that all along. Business is dirty. Everybody is out to screw the other guy. MS may have taken it a little far in their contracts with OEM's five years ago but that is something that is done on a regular basis with any distributer. They could let me sell windows for a $1 if they wanted to. That's there decision not the rest of the world. But those contracts were "bad" in a moral light.

"Let me make a suggestion, try thinking outside the box. Look at both sides of the issue. Don't ignore things that are obvious."

I'll throw that one back at you and let you do some research like a good lawyer :)

"Yes, obviously MS's rivals have something to gain. Third parties gain something in almost every lawsuit. Does that mean they are paying for it, not necessarily. Will they lobby for it, absolutely. If the situation were reversed would MS do the same, you bet your sweet a$$. In fact, they have!!!! "

Um... yes. But what you must understand is I'm pissed because I'M PAYING FOR IT and so is every other taxpayer. MS is lobbying in retaliation which is all the can do to defend themselves against other doing the same. And my dear sir the reverse is not true. Whenever MS is at a the bottom of the hill they fight there way up with better - less expensive products. That is how they beat people in new markets.

"Maybe somewhere in this case there is justification for it that you choose to ignore. Did MS crush Netscape, yes they did IMO."

I'll agree with you there but they did it by offering a better more supported and feature rich product.


#10 By 1295 (216.84.210.100) at 1/1/2002 2:08:12 PM
"I don't care whether or not you like NS"

You should, that is what caused the downfall of NS. Their product became out of date, bulky and featureless. and I don't think you understand that Netscape is a WEB SERVER COMPANY, the browser wasn't even their main product. But I'm sure you researched that and have decided that it was :)

"before Win95 Release 2 (which had IE bundled) more than 85% of users had NS"

Boy, you don't research do you. I'll try and find the sites that actually have the truth. MS started taking market share from NS before they bundled IE 4 which is when MS took the Market. IE3 only had 15%-20% which is what was bundled. it wasn't until 97 after IE 4 came out that they grabbed 50%. I thought lawyers went off facts and research... your loosing some serious ground.

"You can choose to ignore the obvious and be blinded if you want. I've said it before and I will say it again, the people that get on here and pi$$ and moan about the case are people that are in some way dependent on MS directly or indirectly. Whether they be employees, developers, stakeholders, "

Um... i don't ingnore the obvious which is the fact that rather then create a new version of their software NS decided to go through the government. "$$" are you a penguin thumper... sure looks like it. Yes my company is dependent on MS software and so is alot of the rest of the world... that because they have the best software that is easiest to develop for (why apple is dead) and software is so abundant and cheap. Do I use other software... could I, YES I CHOOSE not to and so do alot of other people. I develop with linux, I have linux servers and workstations, I use java and JSP in my company... but I prefer MS's C++ (I know they didn't come up with C++) and ASP. I'm not an employee, I'm a developer, I wish I was a stockholder from 1990 :)

"or even some idiots that have actually been fooled into thinking that MS is the economy (yes I have actually seen posts that try to make that statement) which is rediculous, ask any financial expert"

Well MS has a yearly revenue of 22.956+ billion of the US's 9.963 Trillion GDP. That's alot and taking company of that size out would hurt the economy. But that doesn't take into consideration all the companies and agencies that use and depend on MS products and that would have to switch if MS's software fell behind. They are not the economy but they fuel it pretty damn hard. Don't throw that argument out the window until someone does some studies on my second point.

"Maybe the government is taking this a little too far, but MS has done some things it should not have to done to hurt competition and it should be punished"

I agree with you on both points... but the 9 states punishment is to harsh and leaves Open sourcing and forced licensing of Source code as a legal remedy to any software company.... that scares the hell out of me and it should the rest of the industry.

"with the legal system is if you give an inch someone takes a mile"

Agreed.

"That is why they are proposing tough restrictions, because they know that somewhere in the legal proceedings the restriction will be watered down"

MS will not agree to it because of the restrictions... They can't make remedies expecting it to be watered down... I'm not the lawyer and I'll have to talk to my lawyers about that... but I don't think that is not a legal thing to do :)

"That's just how it works"

Our legal system is not perfect... just keep that in mind.

#11 By 1658 (12.251.22.39) at 1/1/2002 5:23:27 PM
Go Humpty go!!!! :) I like it. I was out of breath, glad someone decided to jump on the bandwagon.

#12 By 1295 (216.84.210.100) at 1/1/2002 10:13:05 PM
#16

Though I can't find the sites I was at to get exact numbers these will help you to understand the growth of IE's market share... the last one will cost you $80US to by a research report that gives actual stats over the years.

http://www.blooberry.com/indexdot/history/ie.htm

http://www.blooberry.com/indexdot/history/netscape.htm

http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/zdnn_smgraph_display/0,4436,2142756,00.html

http://www.cnn.com/TECH/9709/30/ms.explorer/

http://www.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9810/16/browsewar.idg/

http://www.zdnet.com/pcmag/news/trends/t980109a.htm

http://www.onmagazine.com/on-mag/reviews/article/0,9985,24935-2861,00.html

http://preview.marketresearch.com/info/com.marketresearch_reports_460052.html?se=ink

#13 By 135 (208.50.201.48) at 1/1/2002 11:53:06 PM
Noone is to blame for Netscape's demise except themselves.

Typical whiney crap, instead of focusing on bettering oneself, you need to blame all your problems on others. You sound like Rush Limbaugh.

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