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Microsoft Vista creates DRM insanity | |
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| Time: 10:27 EST/15:27 GMT | News Source: the inquirer | Posted By: Chris Hedlund | ||
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ONE OF the 'features' touted on the new Microsoft Vista (nee Longhorn) operating system is the Protected Video Path - Output Protection Management (PVP-OPM). Nick Farrell does an excellent job outlining it here. In a nutshell, unless you have a display device that is equipped with specific technology intended to foil recording, the operating system will degrade the image quality so bit for bit copies cannot be made. Sounds good, right? Well, considering that almost NO monitors are currently shipping with this technology, it means that if you want to view a movie off a HD-DVD as it is encoded, or stream HD content from a Blue-Ray disk to a display, the operating system will kill the video outputs and give you nothing. If you are lucky enough, like me, to have a projector that can handle RGB signals or DVI inputs, you can get a signal but it will be run through a downscaler then an upscaler to reduce the quality. | ||
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| #1 By 2332 (204.9.221.59) at 8/4/2005 11:22:43 AM |
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I posted this regarding the Mac OS X DRM stuff, and I'll post it again until somebody agrees with me. :)
DRM isn't about forcing consumers to do anything. It's about creating a marketplace that currently does not exist at all. This isn't a choice between DRM-free content and DRM restricted content. It's a choice between DRM restricted content, or no content at all. By introducing a reliable and secure DRM model, Microsoft will CREATE a marketplace that currently DOES NOT EXIST. Just like WMA and AAC based DRM allowed for the online music marketplace, hardware-based DRM will allow for all kinds of content to be sold online without the companies who make it available having to worry about widespread piracy. You will still be able to listen to your ripped MP3s, and watch your ripped DVDs. Nobdoy has EVER said that Microsoft's DRM technology would prevent you from doing this. What the DRM technology will do, however, is break down the barrier to entry for an entire new industry of digital content. So please, spare me the cries about fairness. 20 years from now we'll all look back on this as a great addition to computing. It will have made the internet a much better place with a lot more content. |
| #2 By 21203 (71.111.0.26) at 8/4/2005 11:32:23 AM |
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RMD: exactly.
I see this as a new form of pay-per-view for example. It solves a technological problem that currently exists -- the reason why new movies are not released in that media format on cable TV currently, because there is no secure path for a vendor to control the media. And yes, it doesn't break anything currently, it's only new markets. |
| #3 By 10782 (195.169.95.1) at 8/4/2005 11:37:40 AM |
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@RMD Well, you can write it again and again then! :)
Vista does force you to replace a perfectly fine monitor. You have to invest in hardware to create a new market. Nobody has ever said that MS DRM technology will block your ripped MP3s. But surely revoking content and hardware will be one step nearer with Vista. DRM is about protecting company properties and not our rights. We'll need both, when I can't transfer my files to my portable player anymore... it has gone to far in one direction. I'll vote with my wallet. This post was edited by wdekler on Thursday, August 04, 2005 at 11:40. |
| #4 By 21203 (71.111.0.26) at 8/4/2005 12:19:02 PM |
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#3, wrong.
You are forced to replace a perfectly fine monitor when you want to view the new media. It's like blaming the box buying a game/application that says it needs a 6gz processor and then "blaming" the OS for requiring you to upgrade. Non-sequitor. It would be like "this movie requires a secure data path to purchase and view." Sure you would have to buy new stuff. But it has nothing to do with MS directly. This is answering a vendor and market need that doesn't exist yet, and yes, at that time in order to see all the new stuff, you'd have to upgrade. So? People have been doing it for decades. Everything else you said is FUD and unprovable, and about as anti-hype ridden as "activation is the root of all evil". I'm not at all sorry that people who pirate songs/media are scared by this. Be legal and stop being scared, or educate yourself in the facts (plain MP3s can not simply suddenly be rendered non-playable -- DRM encoded MP3s may, however you must have paid for them in the first place, so it's not like that wouldn't be supported!) This post was edited by mram on Thursday, August 04, 2005 at 12:20. |
| #5 By 2459 (69.22.124.157) at 8/4/2005 12:27:26 PM |
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Vista does not do anything beyond what any standalone HD device you buy/lease will do.
If you don't have an HDCP or similar protected interface, you are restricted to viewing the content at a resolution lower than native. It does not block you from viewing content if you lack a protected display. Also, this does not apply to all content. It is up to the content provider to dtermine whether this applies for their content, and as stated previously, this will be the case for all HD devices you will use whether PC-based or standalone CE equipment. This is an industry initiative to curb piracy and bit-perfect copies of commercial HD content. The choice MS and other OS vendors have is to either follow the industry and (as in MS' case) help create a standard that has some balance between consumer/provider and doesn't lock PCs out of the market entirely (see DVD-A and SACD), or have the PC become irrelevant as a high-quality, commercial media platform. The PC can either adopt the same protections as CE devices while continuing to offer cost/flexibility benefits of the platform, or consumers can just settle on completely closed solutions that have the exact same protections in place. This post was edited by n4cer on Thursday, August 04, 2005 at 12:30. |
| #6 By 8556 (12.217.170.92) at 8/4/2005 12:48:19 PM |
| RMD: You are correct. This technology is creating a new market. However, a new monitor probably won't be needed in all cases. A commercial upgrade path (Samsung would love to make extra bucks by selling a black-box that goes between your exising monitor and PC) is very likley to add playback support to existing monitors with DVI inputs that would otherwise be capable of playing higher quality video. |
| #7 By 1896 (68.153.171.248) at 8/4/2005 1:07:59 PM |
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I agree with RMD about this issue; said that until the media owners rights are not balanced with my ones I will not buy all this new stuff. Don't get me wrong, I agree 100% that you are not supposed and you should not buy a DVD and distribute copies of it to all your friends etc. BUT I should be entitled to make a back-up copy of it, store all my movies on my server and stream to every TV in my house, be able, in a painless way, to move all my media contents on a new system if and when I decide to buy a new one and take all my media contents with me to my house on the beach when I go there. Therefore I am not going to buy any media of any kind that does not support my rights. And guess what? I can happily live years without buying a DVD or a CD, there are tons of books I can buy and read; Hollywood cannot survive one month withou sales. This post was edited by Fritzly on Thursday, August 04, 2005 at 18:57. |
| #8 By 3653 (63.162.177.143) at 8/4/2005 1:10:04 PM |
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?4? ?5? inquirer articles this week? might be easier if we just browse there ourselves...
;-) |
| #9 By 1845 (67.172.237.116) at 8/4/2005 2:25:47 PM |
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Interestingly enough, I've had Vista installed for a week and the monitor I've used with Windows 98, Windows 2000 Server, Windows 2000 Professional, and Windows XP Professional continues to work just as well as it did when I bought it five years ago. With LDDM drivers for my vid card, my monitor is even giving me new excitement with Aero Glass.
Me thinks Mr. wdekler has yet to download Vista from MSDN and try it out. Let's forgive him for his ignorance on the subject, but let's not perpetuate the myth that Vista will have any issues with current hardware technology. Rather, let's replace the myth with the truth that new hardware will allow for additional features that are not currently supported with existing hardware or software, which has always been the case across every OS from every vendor since OSes have been made. This post was edited by BobSmith on Thursday, August 04, 2005 at 14:27. |
| #10 By 15406 (216.191.227.68) at 8/4/2005 3:36:02 PM |
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There is nothing in DRM for consumers. It's strictly a method for Big Media to control the market even more than they do now. Yes, it won't affect current media. I've been around long enough to recognize the thin end of the wedge when I see it coming. They (and others here) talk about new markets and how it'll be lovely for the consumer without going into any detail about how DRM will be leveraged. I can easily see a scenario where, if you don't keep paying a monthly license fee to company X, all your *bought* media from that company suddenly stops working. Where's the benefit to me in that again?
For example, I bought an ebook from Amazon two years ago (protected PDF). I do regular backups of my system. One day my disk crashed and I reinstalled XP (yes, I use XP). I restored all my data. Take a wild guess what didn't work anymore? Good thing that ebook was only $12. I didn't re-buy it, and vowed to never again buy anything wrapped in restrictive crap. |
| #11 By 2960 (156.80.34.36) at 8/4/2005 4:12:05 PM |
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No matter how you describe it, the CONSUMER gets screwed.
No doubt about it. Artificial degredation of a product you bought and PAID for to use. What a friggin' concept. TL This post was edited by TechLarry on Thursday, August 04, 2005 at 16:14. |
| #12 By 3653 (63.162.177.143) at 8/4/2005 4:12:42 PM |
| no doubt drm is the "thin edge of the wedge" Latch, but we've all got to be REALISTIC. Its coming. We can't stop that. What we CAN do is get involved and morph it to something more pleasing to us. To disengage (by saying I'll NEVER do this or that) only gives the DRM supporters (everyone BUT you and me) more leverage during this period of "negotiation". |
| #13 By 21203 (71.111.0.26) at 8/4/2005 4:41:37 PM |
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I'd like to know specifically how the consumer gets screwed. Specifically.
You can cite hypothetical situations... but I believe, based upon decades of trend history, that products will be sold with "you must have x/y/z in order to use this product". There is only "screwed" when you're not communicated that information. If you consider it "screwed" that you need a monitor/OS/secure data path in order to get a product, then I'm sure you consider yourself "screwed" in order to require liability insurance, pay phone charges, etc... you know what you're getting into well before you even commit to the product. As #12 said, it's best to approach it intellectually which I fully intend to do. I can see the potential benefits of this technology and would like to ensure that it works fairly in tomorrow's lifestyle, since that's what the target audience is. If pirates are "screwed" that is not a reason to not adopt a technology. This post was edited by mram on Thursday, August 04, 2005 at 16:58. |
| #14 By 15406 (216.191.227.68) at 8/4/2005 5:16:17 PM |
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#12: you are certainly right in that DRM is being foisted upon the public without much in the way of recourse. I'm just stewing in my own juices because I know that there isn't much that I can do about it other than vote with my wallet. I don't appreciate a hundred years of fair usage rights taken away from the masses in our glorious new digital age.
#13: did you not read my post? I've been personally screwed by DRM. Not in the same way as the example of Vista's handling of new media via protected monitors. I do agree that Big Media have no interest in digital distribution without protection, but people want to own things, not license them based on restrictive terms. Big Media's basically saying "our way or the highway". MS is making money off both ends, which is understandable. |
| #15 By 21203 (71.111.0.26) at 8/4/2005 8:13:32 PM |
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You've been screwed by old DRM in its infancy. All technology in its infancy has its faults. I bought $2 in MSN Music and promptly lost it since I didn't do a backup of the license or read the instructions.
Go figure. Nowadays iTunes and MSNMusic lets you run music on 5 machines, burn and offload songs to players, and has a few million subscribers at least. DRM technology is growing. Sure, there are people who think they're screwed because their mouse doesn't work as a foot pedal, but you can't fault technology for being new or just simply not getting it. No I'm not saying you're an idiot. I'm saying you are the exception, not the rule... and a dated exception at that. |
| #16 By 21203 (71.111.0.26) at 8/4/2005 8:23:23 PM |
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By the way, show me how Microsoft is making money from iTunes.
DRM does not inherently mean money in MICROSOFT's pocket. It means money in the pocket for the VENDOR. Microsoft is only a cog in the wheel -- and not all the cogs get greased. In the case of iTunes, you have a DRM product on a Microsoft OS. Gasp. Clearly it means Microsoft is evil right? No, it doesn't work that way. Clearly it means Microsoft must be making 98 cents for every dollar you spend. No, in fact they earn precisely zilch for it. The reason why Apple and Microsoft are adopting DRM and the reason why Linus spoke up so quickly stating that "Oh yeah Linux can do DRM too, don't count us out!" is because like it's been said, DRM is coming no matter what. Any operating system that doesn't provide the function will not be purchased. It's not like when you buy a DRM product a percentage goes to the OS -- because after all it could be a TIVO system running Linux, or a MCE/DVR system in 5-10 years. If that's what you mean that Microsoft is making money, well, you got me. /yawn So is Linux, and OS/X then, in equal share. The point is moot. It's like PCI or PCI-Express, any operating system that doesn't support that hardware or software will be left in the cold. Is that "making money off both ends"? Not really. |
| #17 By 1845 (67.172.237.116) at 8/4/2005 11:53:33 PM |
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"I do agree that Big Media have no interest in digital distribution without protection, but people want to own things, not license them based on restrictive terms."
Some people do and some people don't. A friend of mine just told me of a wonderful discovery. He's hooked up with a video on demand service. For promotional movies and certain holidays, he can download a movie for one or two dollars and watch it for 24 or 48 hours....without ever even leaving his house. It's cheaper than renting at Blockbuster. There are no late fees. He even saves on gas, since he doesn't have to physically go to a store to rent or return the vids. He's quite happy with it. And his happiness comes from WMV's support for a DRM infrastructure that was pallatable to both the content producer, the content vendor, and the content consumer. Yes, there are those that don't like DRM. There are those that do. My friend is a fan of it. I'm a fan of it...I get ebooks cheaper than paper back and I've yet to have a problem with licenses. My point in posting is to say that yours is one opinion among many. You are not the spokesperson (not saying that you claimed to be, but it does sound that way quite often) of the computer using world, and there are many who disagree with you and voice that disagreement by patronizing vendors that offter DRM'ed content. |
| #18 By 15406 (216.191.227.68) at 8/5/2005 9:31:24 AM |
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#15: You can apologize for DRM all you want, but that doesn't make it desirable. I agree that it isn't going away, but that doesn't mean that I have to like it or not complain about it.
#16: I don't believe I mentioned iTunes anywhere. MS is hooking into as many media co's a they sign up. I don't knock them for this (for once). #17: Good for him. Meanwhile, for $3 I can get a PPV movie on demand on my HD-PVR, keep it as long as I want to, watch it as many times as I want to and copy it to tape if I so choose (which I don't typically do; if I like it enough to keep it, I'll buy the DVD with all the nice packaging and any extras.) And I've never claimed to speak for anyone. I am just presenting what I've seen on various forums and web boards like this. This is the only board I read that has people championing DRM and spinning it like the loss of fair usage rights are somehow a good thing. |
| #19 By 1845 (67.172.237.116) at 8/5/2005 11:38:52 AM |
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The issue is that when you say things like "people want..." you are speaking for more than just yourself. If you only intended to speak for yourself, you'd say "I want..." and leave it at that.
I and many other don't have HD-PVR. Kudos for being able to do that. I can't. Where do you get $3 HD movies with no strings attached? As for fair use, there's no loss at issue. You have a perceived loss but no actual loss. It's simply a different business model. If consumers don't like it, and according to you they don't, then it won't get very far. If you are wrong, and I suspect you are, consumers will adopt it. What too many people seem to forget is that voting with your credit card is more imporant than getting all hot and bothered and sites like this. DRM is being added to more and more products and is protecting more and more content, because consumers, in general, don't have a problem with it. You can say all you want to the contrary, but the sales figures do and will speak for themselves. |
| #20 By 15406 (216.191.227.68) at 8/5/2005 1:07:25 PM |
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#19: When I write 'people want..', for instance, it's a reflection of the general opinion on the various places that I frequent. Most of the sites I read are oriented to the tech-savvy for the most part, and the general opinion based on user comments (or my perception thereof if you want to get picky) is that DRM is not wanted by the vocal majority. Perhaps I'll preface it in future with "The majority of stated opinions from informed users of high-profile tech sites X, Y and Z is..."
I'm also not arguing that DRM-wrapped content is the new business model of Big Media. However, I would tend to believe that the non-tech savvy majority will go along because they're being told it's a good thing by Big Media and those who will profit from it, with no focus on the possible/potential negative aspects. I believe that the majority of non-technical people will just assume that DRM will give them the digital equivalent of the same fair use they've come to expect. Nobody is telling them that they may not be able to move the content from device to device because of artificial barriers, that they may not be able to print content, use it past a certain timeframe, that they may lose access to purchased content due to license revocation or bugs in the DRM implementation. For instance, I've read that some users who purchased Half-Life 2 found that they could not activate the game because their Product Key had already been spit out by a warez keygen, used & registered long before they got home with their boxed copy and installed it. Nobody told them that this could happen. Edit: I forgot one of your Qs. I'm with Rogers cable in Canada. I can watch 6 month+ old movies in HD for free as well as On-Demand, but premium On-Demand & Pay Per View are more expensive ($5-8) for new titles, of course. You record them on the PVR and they stay there forever until you manually delete them or the PVR hard disk dies. This post was edited by Latch on Friday, August 05, 2005 at 13:17. |
| #21 By 9156 (192.55.140.2) at 8/5/2005 1:27:06 PM |
| Are we forgetting, someone will break DRM to a point where you can turn off the feature, the file will play normally, you can copy it to however many systems you want. Just like the encryption on DVD's, it will be cracked. Any technology that is locked into place for an extended amount of time like CD Audio, DVD or HD-DVD gives people plenty of time to crack the encryption, and the venders cant change it or the media will stop working on all the devices already on the market. And people wont accept they have to buy a new DVD player every 2 years when someone cracks the encryption. Dont worry, we will have HD-DVD-Shrink. |
| #22 By 2332 (204.9.221.59) at 8/5/2005 5:01:26 PM |
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#21 - It will be MUCH harder with the next gen DRM because it wil lbe 100% hardware based.
You will need to modify hardware in order to get past this DRM. In fact, the next gen CPUs will have this built into them. Unless you have a fab plant handy you're not going to be able to make your own CPU to get around this DRM. And that's one of the big reasons why it will be able to create a large marketplace... businesses will be confident in it. |
| #23 By 3653 (63.162.177.143) at 8/5/2005 5:23:58 PM |
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holy crap, latch is canadian. there goes my last tiny bit of respect for him.
have a good weekend everybody! |
| #24 By 12071 (203.166.227.245) at 8/5/2005 9:56:32 PM |
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#23 "holy crap, latch is canadian. there goes my last tiny bit of respect for him"
And if anyone here had any respect left for you... it just went with that comment. What are you, 12? Oh no he's Canadian! It's a good thing he's not French then you and your freedom fries would have a lot more respect to lose for him! |
| #25 By 1845 (67.172.237.116) at 8/6/2005 9:16:07 PM |
| Looks like we've found some common ground, Kabuki. :-) |
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