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Opera 'borks' MSN in standards spat | |
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| Time: 12:44 EST/17:44 GMT | News Source: ZDNet | Posted By: Robert Stein | ||
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Opera has released a new version of its browser that turns MSN to gibberish, following an accusation that Microsoft is sabotaging rival browsers Opera Software has released a new version of its Opera 7 Web browser with just one tweak -- it turns Microsoft's MSN Web site into gibberish inspired by the Swedish Chef from The Muppet Show. | ||
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| #1 By 20 (24.243.41.64) at 2/14/2003 1:13:52 PM |
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I think that HTML is far too complicated since no browser in the history of software has ever rendered every HTML 100% properly 100% of the time. IE comes pretty darn close and is very tolerant of errors, but I think XHTML with schema validation needs to become the next standard, or something even more strict.
True, there are DTDs today, but there's no enforcement. When a programmer is making a web page, he should be able to turn the browser into "STRICT" mode which won't render pages which don't validate against the specified DTD Or XML schema. HTML sucks, let's fire it and move on. |
| #2 By 2459 (24.170.151.19) at 2/14/2003 1:49:38 PM |
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MS fixes the problem and Opera breaks it worse than it was before. Great business sense.
Are there ad-supported and pay versions of this browser, too? :-) |
| #3 By 8273 (131.107.3.74) at 2/14/2003 1:58:27 PM |
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Wasn't everybody up in arms when Microsoft released an IE bata that would add smart tags to web pages? They yelled and screamed that MS was changing their web pages without their consent. Now, you have a company modifying a MS site to intentionally change the pages (at least the smart tags had some use to them).
A trip over to /. shows that they love that Opera did this. No, they are not hypocritical. |
| #4 By 7390 (198.246.16.251) at 2/14/2003 2:25:26 PM |
| so all 10 Opera users can't go MSN or get MSN rendered correctly. Were they going there anyway? Servs them for not using IE or heavens forbid Nutscrape (I meant Netscape). |
| #5 By 3653 (63.162.177.140) at 2/14/2003 2:29:42 PM |
| See ya Opera. To the junk heap you go. |
| #6 By 13030 (198.22.121.120) at 2/14/2003 2:47:21 PM |
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Peety thuse-a veethuoot a sense-a ooff hoomur...
Bork Bork Bork! |
| #7 By 3339 (65.198.47.10) at 2/14/2003 5:03:07 PM |
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ch, glad someone get's it, for crying out loud!! It's a joke, people. This doesn't change Opera in any way folks--it's not a question of them trying to block out MSN or to alienate your trust...
They are just expressing a sense of humor, people. BorK! BorK! BorK! |
| #8 By 8273 (131.107.3.74) at 2/14/2003 5:14:21 PM |
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#14 Then MSN was just playing a joke on Opera. They were playing a little hide-and-seek with a bulleted list. They are just expressing a sense of humor, people.
Tag, your it! |
| #9 By 3339 (65.198.47.10) at 2/14/2003 5:30:36 PM |
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That's not what MS said--they said they need to go the extra distance to deliver a highly usable experience to their users.
Opera is saying MS is pathetic and we're willing to joke about it--dealing with them, aiding them, going to the press doesn't work--why not make them the butt of a joke! Tag, you're pathetic! I don't know why you people can't get this--they didn't change currently installed browsers or anything--in other words you would have to download this app.. it doesn't overwrite Opera... it only fucntions uniquely when you visit MSN so you'd actually be giving MS hits, then you'd realize that Opera's still on your computer and you don't speak Chef... They didn't do anything to Opera--this is just a joke app that's only interesting for ten minutes... It's not actual retaliation by blocking MSN as some of you have suggesting, it's not hypocritical--it's funny. This post was edited by sodajerk on Friday, February 14, 2003 at 17:31. |
| #10 By 931 (66.156.2.91) at 2/14/2003 5:53:51 PM |
| pretty lame joke if you ask me.. |
| #11 By 3339 (65.198.47.10) at 2/14/2003 5:54:34 PM |
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"They could have risen above Microsoft and released a patch that worked around Microsoft's stylesheet, but no." No, they couldn't have--there are things you can do on the web server-side and the browser-side to fck a site.
MS was doing extra work even though Opera has communicated to MS that they do not need to be singled out. Despite this MS decides to single them out, but not update the "special" stylesheet, and apparently not test it. Word gets out, and MS talks a nice talk for two days before finally taking the three seconds required to fix it. Opera has just truned the tables. "The point is that Opera was stupid enough to waste the development time." It seems to have taken as much time as they had to waste by trying to communicate with MS or by going to the press. If you need to make a point, the time is worth it. "They said it's a joke, but at the same time they said they were trying to make a point." Yes, since when are the two mutually exclusive. "And the point they made was that they we shouldn't take them seriously." Why not? Because they have a sense of humor? Because they can do exactly what MS did to them a year ago? Because they could develop it in a matter of days? "And now it's just something to be joked about? " No, the issue is very serious; MSN is the joke. That's the point. If they don't want to listen to Opera, if they don't want to respond to the press, Opera will make jokes of them. I don't see why softies are so pathetically obsessed.... There are 20 stories here about new technology, new betas, new patches, Gates promises the sky again... and you guys are acting as if Opera is the most evil company for making a joke? A funny one! A laughable, loveable childhood character! And it's making fun of themselves--Scandanavians are crazy and talk funny? !! You people consider yourselves technologists but the only thing you have something to talk about is the Swedish Chef? Please.... |
| #12 By 1845 (12.209.152.69) at 2/14/2003 6:43:10 PM |
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My $.02. Opera is a tiny and insignificant company. Who cares what they do? They aren't the fastest, they aren't the most standards compliant, they aren't the most elegant. They don't really matter. I've never cared whether a site I wrote rendered well in Opera, since it has never been worth my client's money to insure compliance with such a small player in the market. So, Opera makes a joke. So what! The point is, they are trying to get attention and since they haven't done anything worthy of it, they don't deserve it.
I agree with jerk. There are far more important things to talk about than the whining (err, funny) Opera folks. |
| #13 By 2459 (24.170.151.19) at 2/14/2003 7:36:45 PM |
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You guys may find this link interesting:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=53840&threshold=-1&commentsort=0&tid=133&mode=flat&cid=5303746 It seems the -30px issue may have been due to a bug in Netscape 4.7 and (possibly) Opera 5.0's CSS handling. |
| #14 By 3339 (65.198.47.10) at 2/14/2003 8:40:09 PM |
| Why is that interesting, enforcer? The replies note that he is wrong according to Opera's research. And according to MS who said it was the old IE stylesheet. And why would MS develop NEW code to search for a NEW string and arbitrarily pass it an OLD stylesheet for a different platform without testing it? These possibilities are completely out there but that doesn't neagete the point: MS doesn't need to specially target Opera (because Opera does the work to render as if it were IE), especially if they are doing this extra work without actually producing a stylesheet that works for Opera. That's been the issue all along--it's still a problem. |
| #15 By 2459 (24.170.151.19) at 2/14/2003 11:26:42 PM |
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The replies that dispute this don't offer any supporting evidence. One reply points to Opera's site, claiming that the site seems to dispute the claim, but Opera tested neither with Opera 5 nor Netscape 4.7.
Opera is being fed the generic stylesheet for the site probably based upon the older browser. The users in the Opera forum (linked from the "MS is bad" Opera page) even came to this conclusion. Also note that MS wasn't the only one with stylesheets that caused problems for later versions of Opera. Some other sites were linked in the forum. |
| #16 By 12071 (203.217.3.207) at 2/15/2003 3:21:13 AM |
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#1 "Okay, all favoritism and loyalty aside,"
Do you really think that's possible from some of the people here? I'll let their comments above answer that question! #2 "IE comes pretty darn close and is very tolerant of errors" Whilst IE is VERY good when it comes to handling errors it could still be a lot more standard compliant. The problem with IE being a) the most widely used browser and b) handling errors so well is that it doesn't enforce that web developers even TRY to make sure that their web pages are compliant. Most testing involves seeing what the page looks like in IE and if it looks ok it must be fine although we all know that the page could be completely mangled and still 'look right in IE'. Web developers should have to run all the web pages through a "HTML Validator" program .... but how can you possible enforce this! #7 "One table was slightly off. That was it. I saw the differences, they were minor." So we should only complain about web standards not being met or being mangled in some way is they cause MAJOR differences? #9 "Servs them for not using IE " Why should they use IE? Why should someone be punished for not using IE when the web developer is at fault? So what you're trying to tell us is that you don't actually embrace competition and choice where users can decide for themselves what web browser they use and not be punished for not using IE. #17 "They could have risen above Microsoft and released a patch that worked around Microsoft's stylesheet, but no." It's not up to Opera to correct an error written by the MSN web developers. Should Opera start implementing additional methods to patch all the other 'features' specific to IE rather than keeping to the standards they all should be keeping to? |
| #17 By 1845 (12.209.152.69) at 2/15/2003 4:02:43 AM |
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Bork, bork, bork! Kabuki is ragging again. I hardly consider you to look objectively at an issue either, sir, so if I were you, I wouldn't be making comments on other people's bias.
IE is tolerant of errors. Another way of saying this is - IE is backward compatible. That's a good thing. You're idea of mandating (how would you do that anyway?) HTML validation is preposterous. Even all of the pages at the high and might w3c don't validate. (Just checked, the fixed the broken pages on the XQuery section. Perhaps they are all valid again. At any rate, w3c has its issues too.) If the group that writes the standards doesn't always live them, why should the rest of us? If all the companies that compose the w3c don't live by the standards, why should the rest of us? Here's a standards idea, let's see a browser that fully implements - HTML 4, XHTML (using text/xml not text/html) 1, 1.1, 2.0, XML 1.0, XSLT and XSL-FO, CSS 1, CSS 2, SVG 1.0. You show me the browser that does that, which at least 30% of the market uses, and I'll write compliant pages. Until that happens, I'm so tired of this insane standards debate. Moz is on the same level as IE 6 with standards compliance. Neither fully implement CSS 1 (released 7 years ago!), so what hope do we have of full implementations of newer standards? Besides this, if I author a page, it is my right to author it in any fashion that suites me. If I require a download of my unsigned ActiveX control (of course binding me to IE only) to view my site, it is my choice to do that. Nobody has any right to force me to author my content in any way other than the way in which I choose to author it. Opera. Get off your high horse. Perhaps you aren't aware of the 30px offset bug of previous versions of Opera? That wasn't Microsoft's fault. It was Opera's fault. They had a bug. Microsoft went out of their way to code around a bug in Opera's software. In newer versions this bug in Opera was fixed. Now that Microsoft is aware of the fix in Opera's web browser, they have updated MSN accordingly. Before Opera gets up in arms about msn.com having errors, let's see them put out a standards compliant browser (see the specs above) with bug free full implementations. If they can't produce a bug free product, what ground do they have to stand on in criticizing someone else? Oh, they don't! This post was edited by BobSmith on Saturday, February 15, 2003 at 04:04. |
| #18 By 8273 (4.47.64.29) at 2/15/2003 5:27:00 AM |
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Hey Jerk, answer this for me: Which is more pathetic: a group of people who "only thing you have something to talk about is the Swedish Chef?", or somebody who has nothing to do other than to comment about people who have nothing to talk about other than the Swedish Chef? This post was edited by SoylentGreen on Saturday, February 15, 2003 at 05:27. |
| #19 By 12071 (203.217.20.168) at 2/15/2003 9:31:29 AM |
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<font size=1 color=navy><strong>This comment has been removed due to a violation of the Active Network Terms of Use.</strong></font>
What was in my comment that violated the Terms of Use? I didn't swear nor call anyone names? What BobSmith didn't like my comment and complained? This post was edited by chris_kabuki on Saturday, February 15, 2003 at 21:24. |
| #20 By 135 (208.50.206.187) at 2/15/2003 12:24:19 PM |
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HTML sucks... It's one of the most poorly defined, least implementable standards ever fostered on mankind.
These issues keep coming up because of Netscape and how they screwed over HTML standard by not implementing it anywhere close, forcing web designers to develop multiple versions of sites. |
| #21 By 7760 (12.155.143.50) at 2/15/2003 1:48:40 PM |
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Joke or not, it's immature, IMO.
I don't code my pages for Opera -- I don't even check them in Opera. If they don't render in Opera, I don't care. It's not intentional if they don't render. It's a realization that coding for a sub-1% share browser is a waste of time. Maybe if Opera used their time to improve Opera and lift themselves from the browser basement instead of playing immature games... |
| #22 By 11888 (64.230.79.19) at 2/15/2003 2:14:21 PM |
| Immature? Oh come on, lighten up. I can't imagine getting into a huff over this. |
| #23 By 12071 (203.217.17.60) at 2/15/2003 9:30:21 PM |
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#31 "Yes, there probably should be mandated schema validation, but this isn't an ideal world and that's just not gonna happen without severely breaking the user experience."
That's because as I mentioned in my comment which has since been removed for god knows what reason, we have a single browser with 93% or so marketshare. Therefore web developers get lazy, it would be a lot closer to a perfect world if the market share was even because then web developers couldn't afford to be lazy. Writing to the standard doesn't take that much extra time, I know that whenever I am writing JSP's and the like I always test them in several versions of several browsers because they can all potentially look different. I want the user to make the choice for themself what web browser they use not be forced to use the single web browser I decided to test on. And this goes for any single web browser no specific one. |
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