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DoCoMo abandons Microsoft video format in favour of open standard for 3G service | |
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| Time: 06:58 EST/11:58 GMT | News Source: CW360° | Posted By: Bill Roach | ||
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NTT DoCoMo is switching from a Microsoft video format to an open industry standard for its video-on-demand service offered over its third-generation cellular network. The company is dropping the use of ASF (Advanced Streaming Format) on its I-motion service in favour of MP4, a wrapper format for MPEG4 video and audio and text, because of the cost of licensing fees levied for use of the system by Microsoft, according to an NTT DoCoMo spokeswoman. | ||
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| #1 By 1845 (12.209.152.69) at 12/18/2002 7:55:45 AM |
| That's odd, since there are license fees for MPEG4 as well. Also, WMV9 has superiour video quality and smaller size than MPEG4. |
| #2 By 2960 (156.80.64.132) at 12/18/2002 8:05:12 AM |
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I say GOOD for them...
I didn't mind Windows Media until Microsoft turned it into the Jail-Cell for Media. Now I could care less about the Windows Media format. As for the licensing fee's, those were adjusted in a major way a few months ago, and are apparantly somewhat painless now. TL |
| #3 By 2459 (24.233.39.98) at 12/18/2002 8:30:12 AM |
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Jail Cell media?
I'm assuming you are referring to its DRM support? This presents no problem for content you create, and allows content producers security from piracy. MS is not the only company adding DRM to their format. They are just one of the first. |
| #4 By 2459 (24.233.39.98) at 12/18/2002 8:32:17 AM |
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bas, Yes.
WMP is available on the Mac. An open source decoder is available for *n*x. The format is licensable for anyone that wants it, and there are no streaming costs.. |
| #5 By 1845 (12.209.152.69) at 12/18/2002 11:48:00 AM |
| Apple doesn't have a full implementation of MPEG4 in the latest Quicktime. |
| #6 By 2459 (24.233.39.98) at 12/18/2002 12:12:27 PM |
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Parker, I guess they figured it wouldn't matter on the (generally) small screens of mobile devices. One thing they overlooked is that they could get similar (better IMO) quality as MP4 using half the bandwidth with Windows Media. Any savings they may get by going with MP4 (which is questionable) may be negated by bandwidth costs (and, as previously stated, streaming costs).
Plus the bandwidth savings could be used to provide other services, or at least, a better streaming experience. This post was edited by n4cer on Wednesday, December 18, 2002 at 12:15. |
| #7 By 3339 (65.198.47.10) at 12/18/2002 12:41:49 PM |
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"Apple doesn't have a full implementation of MPEG4 in the latest Quicktime."
Curious, what youmean by this, Bob? MPEG-LA will continue to add components to mpeg4 and so will Apple, but as far as what has been approved by MPEG-LA and is set in stone, it's certainly in QT6. |
| #8 By 2960 (156.80.64.132) at 12/18/2002 12:55:22 PM |
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#8,
Like just about everyone else, Apple got caught up in the Licensing BruHaHa with MPEG-4. Now that this is settled, I think Apple and other companies will be moving forwared. Apple actually held up the release of QuickTime 6 for a while hoping this would be resolved, but apparantly the had to do an initial release without full support. But, it's all just a .1 release away :) TL |
| #9 By 3339 (65.198.47.10) at 12/18/2002 1:25:59 PM |
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Strange how some of you think mpeg4 doesn't compare with WMV, but NTT is saying they will be able to provide higher quality, larger, and longer files... and they also intend to take advantage of the multimedia layers of mpeg4 as well to provide text tickers along with the video. And the licensing costs will be cheaper!
(maybe you're right--they don't compare.) |
| #10 By 3339 (65.198.47.10) at 12/18/2002 1:42:29 PM |
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I would note as well along TL and parker's comments, the most significant delay to releasing mpeg4 was hammering out the details for the satellite radio standard. Oh, the softies didn't know that mpeg isn't only the standard for VCDs, DVDs, and raw digitial video, but also for satellite? And they recently approved what will probably be the standard for mobile streaming just recently (3GPP, which is what NTT is using).
Microsoft might fight to get some DVD support, but I doubt they'll dislodge mpeg as the standard for home media (largely DVDs)--particularly as mpeg2 migrates to mpeg4, and since the satellite radio standards are solidly locked up, and with 3GPP being a telecomm standard not supported by WMV, I think you'll see quite a bit of mobile news surrounding mpeg in coming months. |
| #11 By 3339 (65.198.47.10) at 12/18/2002 2:49:18 PM |
| TL, expect 6.1 to be released at MWSF, but you probably know that. I've got a feeling they won't have the iPhone software ready though... We'll see! ;-) |
| #12 By 3339 (65.198.47.10) at 12/18/2002 2:50:14 PM |
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since I double posted, I'll make a comment on the licensing fees. The licensing fees are restricted to those who rake in in excess of 1,000,000 dollars in revenue from their streams (and there are some other conditions) so most will actually not face any fees and those who do will clearly be making cash off of the technology. I think most everyone is satisfied at this point. This post was edited by sodajerk on Wednesday, December 18, 2002 at 14:59. |
| #13 By 116 (129.116.86.41) at 12/18/2002 3:42:22 PM |
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SodaJerk,
You should test out the windows media 9 series. It is in my opinion the best format for video bar none. Do a side by side comparison encode with WM9 and MP4. Feel free to share your results. Peace, RA |
| #14 By 3339 (65.198.47.10) at 12/18/2002 5:16:54 PM |
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Red, all I need to know is mpeg4 is higher quality than mpeg2. If mpeg2 is already digital video quality, I doubt that at my skill level I would discern the difference.
As for size, DVDs are already huge, I doubt WMV is going to take over the DVD market because they could fit 3 times as much instead of 2.4 times as much when the studies don't know what to do with the space they have. I would say having the DVD standard, mobile standard, satellite radio standard, the next generation of mp3, and an open format is the sort of advantage I'm looking for. Run WMV on anything besides a Windows computer and see the quality turn to shit. Even on a PC, I can disrupt the viewing window with redraws and other techniques in nothing flat. I haven't experienced this with Q6 even on a taxed OS X system. |
| #15 By 3339 (65.198.47.10) at 12/18/2002 5:45:42 PM |
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"And the WMV standard is now locked meaning it will be easy to encode and decode even as time passes"
What does this mean? mpeg is a wrapper that contains many, many formats. Encoding and decoding doesn't change over time if a new format within the wrapper is added... It's just a new format that wasn't available before. I'd rather have the format that will continue to add other formats. "And MP4 -- so far -- looks to be of lesser quality than WMV and to use it in the Windows space means license fees." What license fees? If you have a decoder--that decoder is alrady licensed. If you have an encoder, that encoder is licensed. Create and distribute content as files all you want, no license necessary. If you stream large quantities of content and charge for the content and make over a million dollars, then you have to pay a small royalty. This post was edited by sodajerk on Wednesday, December 18, 2002 at 17:47. |
| #16 By 3339 (65.198.47.10) at 12/18/2002 5:52:19 PM |
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"mpeg4 is not necessarily higher quality than mpeg2. It might be higher quality if the file sizes are the same."
Not necessarily, but that can be said of most formats. And I have taken mpeg2s and converted them to mpeg4 without loss and the files got much smaller -- 50-30% smaller. That's not the same size, is it? "Who cares if WMV isn't on a non-windows desktop. That leaves 95%+ of the market to WMV." I do, phone makers and providers do, web sites should, Nix users do, mp3 player users do, the radio industry, the Recording industry, etc... I don't even play WMV content using WMP--I'd rather use Real. If Real gets WMV compatibility in the Mac version, I wouldn't need WMP for Mac. |
| #17 By 3339 (65.198.47.10) at 12/18/2002 5:57:15 PM |
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by the way, parker, your 95+%.... My point was largely that QT or mpeg may seem lower quality than WMV on Wintel from your perspective, but if you look at a variety of platforms, QT/mpeg retains its quality and speed much better than WMV. That's a major asset.
But how about when it comes to serving the files, creating the files, etc... Are you telling me its preferable to force the user to buy a couple of thousand dollars worth of licensing to deliver the files when you can serve mpeg for free? I tend to stay away from lockin anyway, but the idea of taking MS's license costs in the ass to host the files is not desirable when the alternative is free. |
| #18 By 3339 (65.198.47.10) at 12/18/2002 6:20:03 PM |
| Oh, and, parker, is your computer monitor HDTV-enabled? You've got one of the 23" inch Apple Cinema Display HDs? Nice. As for HDTV, I think we'll all be waiting quite a while before we care--and by then we can expect file improvements and increased capacity to media storage. NTT already has 36 million iMode subscribers, and they have a number of European partners as well, today. |
| #19 By 3339 (65.198.47.10) at 12/18/2002 8:07:33 PM |
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No, Parker, mpeg4 was not locked two years ago--3GPP was just added last week or so and there are numerous formats up for consideration at this very moment, and this was the process over the last two years. It's a wrapper format so how the heck can it be "locked"?
So hardly anyone owns anything HDTV capable (TV or computer monitor), you can't record or purchase anything in HDTV format (except one tape system), and this is relevent NOW for what reason? Why would I care? Nor have you demonstrated that mpeg-4 isn't small enough to capture a full legth HDTV film on DVD so this is a silly and pointless arguement. Actually Real is quite good these days--a bit more horrible on the PC, but I know how to control file associations. (By the way, on the Mac it hardly installs anything extra and QT takes back the file associations you want to be handled by that app.) Dismiss phones if you want. It is a real and burgeoning market in other parts of the world. Who's talking about watching a widescreen effects picture; I'm talking about going to Vegas and recording a lady across the room and streaming it to a friend at another casino to get him where I am, or some other silly but practical use of person-to-person video, or watching highlights of the game you wanted to see because you're stuck in traffic, or getting a video weather report, or a million other practical applications for video and phone. (What I don't care about is using an Excel spreadsheet on my phone; however, video on the phone is highly likely to be mpeg and is a very attractive application to me.) This post was edited by sodajerk on Wednesday, December 18, 2002 at 20:10. |
| #20 By 3339 (65.198.47.10) at 12/18/2002 8:46:13 PM |
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No, I'm not.
http://news.com.com/2100-1023-966471.html http://news.com.com/2100-1023-976829.html http://news.com.com/2100-1023-978383.html There's 3 new formats about to be added or just recently added. If you want to talk about the baseline video compression format--okay: how pathetic is that that MS had 3 extra years to develop something comparable or only slightly better? I'm much more concerned about the technology and how it relates to numerous issues: standards, openness, applications, ease of use to encode, decode, etc, costs, licensing, lock-in, etc... To see some of the recent progress is pretty exciting. Even without these new standards coming, I would say that mpeg leads in most of my criteria. |
| #21 By 3339 (65.198.47.10) at 12/18/2002 8:52:02 PM |
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As for HDTV--3 million "projected" for this year? Big deal. Didn't I just point out that 36 million active subscribers are already getting this video service from NTT DoCoMo RIGHT NOW!!!
Even your own articles sound wishy-washy. It actually recommends to people to not be concerned wih buying an analog TV between now and 2006 (let's repeat 2006) because there is going to be a amrket for analog-to-digital settop boxes. Doesn't exactly sound hot to me, and I have no reason to spend between a $1000 to $3000 on a TV. Besides, what would HDTV cost to put on your computer? And who's doing that? I only know of Apple. How many shows are broadcast in HDTV (a fair number I know, but who has the TV, broadcast signal, and recorder) How many HDTV DVD recorders have been sold? How expensive are they? How many HDTV camcorders have been sold? How expensive are they? So bring up the HDTV issue when every DVD is in WMV, until that day, you do not have a point about recording HDTV. And again, are you suggesting it's impossible to fit a HDTV movie in mpeg4 format on a DVD? Until you can prove that, you have zero point. |
| #22 By 3339 (65.198.47.10) at 12/18/2002 9:03:41 PM |
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Were is this data, parker? Everything I've seen suggest that the quality difference and size is negligbly different. But the other differences are huge.
Much of this is up in the air as well: for instance, which format's "instant start" is better? which format's "buffering" is better? etc... A file size isn't going to answer anything, nor can we discount the value of the servers serving the streams (how much they cost, how they perform, cost of licensing, cost of maintenance, downtime, load capacity, etc.) So far, I'm entirely unimpressed with WMV. |
| #23 By 116 (66.69.198.173) at 12/18/2002 9:35:23 PM |
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Let me qualify my earlier statement. On my windows pc windows media player wins hands down. Looking at MPEG 4 streams and actual encoded material using QT and Real WMV is entirely superior. File Size is lower and quality is better (this goes bigtime for wma).
However I can see how this doesn't translate over to your mac SJerk. Personally I don't like WMP on the Mac. QT is better on the mac but its still nagware and I really don't care for it. QT sucks more on the PC but not by much. iTunes is the saving grace for media on the mac which was better than media player xp. With 9 series Microsoft went off on their Apple buddies. The player is the best on the market. Much better than iTunes on the mac (which is the only other media app that competes). So if MS made the 9 series codecs perform as well as they do on windows pc's right now then it would be a no brainer. It remains to be seen whether or not that will happen. JWM lots of OEM's and third party manufacturers utilize windows media technologies in their products. There are many reasons for this. 1) Consumers want the support 2) Its just flat out better technology 3) Cheap to implement 4) Integration to WMP Supposedly DirecTV is in talks about migrating their broadcasts over to WM9. Whether this happens or not remains to be seen (they are talking about doing it for broadcast savings). What is confusing is that Docomo is using ASF which makes me think its not the 9series stuff. Not quite sure though... |
| #24 By 116 (66.69.198.173) at 12/18/2002 9:41:46 PM |
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Sjerk I am going to disagree with you bigtime on HD. Its coming and its coming fast.
I have a 48 inch Mitsubishi HD TV and its awesome. I spent money to get HD resolution on the thing and its worth it. I bought my XBOX specifically for its HD features (still no games in 1080i yet though). The fact that the XBOX can do HD is a huge feature gap between it and the other consoles right now. But I digress... I don't see HD-DVD's coming out for a couple of years yet and I don't think they will use current DVD technology. I think they will probably use a blue laser and have a completely different compression scheme (could be WM possibly MPEG). That will be an interesting battle to see who wins that one. May the best tech win! |
| #25 By 3339 (65.198.47.10) at 12/19/2002 1:38:55 PM |
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parker, you still don't get what mpeg-4 is, do you? Mpeg-4 isn't just mpeg-4, it's the whole family of formats which have been approved under the umbrella of mpeg-4. This is specifically the underlying technology that comes from Apple. I can create a 3GPP file and save it as mpeg. I can create an H.264 file and save it as mpeg-4. Any mpeg-4 decoder will play these files. So how are these files not mpeg?
The blurb you provide is meaningless to me--the article admits its sources are "claims by Microsoft." There is no mention of how files are encoded for comaprison sake. And as I said, if the file size is different, but the larger file buffers better... you may easily find that the larger file performs better as a stream. So we haven't seen much evidence yet of anything. Oh, I'm sorry--I didn't know Red had a HDTV--I'm sorry, Red, you're right--it's seeping the nation. You make me laugh big time buddy. I love this: "I bought my XBOX specifically for its HD features (still no games in 1080i yet though). The fact that the XBOX can do HD is a huge feature gap between it and the other consoles right now." Ha, ha, ha! There's a big gap, but as far as you knew up til now there wasn't a single game availabel? Whhooooweee! Big feature gap! HDTV is here, but there's zero content! Uhh, no. |
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