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Safari exposes IE as a brave face for poor coding

Time: 06:04 EST/11:04 GMT | News Source: E-Mail | Posted By: Byron Hinson

Safari developer David Hyatt has attacked Internet Explorer for letting website developers get away with writing 'malformed code' and consequently holding back the development of Apple's browser. In his weblog Hyatt explains that most of the reports he receives about 'bugs in Safari' are 'essentially differences in error handling and error recovery between Safari and the dominant Web browser, WinIE'.

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#1 By 2332 (65.221.182.2) at 1/20/2004 9:15:10 AM

Hahaha. I love it.

Ironically, anybody who has done any serious web development loves IE for exactly that same reason. It doesn't bitch and moan over mild HTML coding errors.

Sorry, but if it makes it easier for me to develop web apps, then I like it. I couldn't care less about a browser that has a user base smaller than the Atari 2600.

Get over it and compete. Microsoft did it with IE when Netscape was dominant. They duplicated all the extras that Netscape had, and didn't start extending stuff until they had the magical 40% market share. Safari needs to do the same.

#2 By 3 (81.106.163.57) at 1/20/2004 10:59:07 AM

Stupid comment by Apple to me, even if i agree that IE has made bad code a regular occurance on websites (including this one) as we don't have to worry about it much.

#2 - it's an excellent browser, why drop something that is easily the best on the mac platform.

#3 By 13030 (198.22.121.120) at 1/20/2004 11:02:25 AM

I find the loose and forgiving rendering engine in IE to be more of a disservice. There's nothing wrong with requiring well-formed and standard following HTML. At the very least it would led to better HTML (ahem) code.

#1: "[E]asier for me to develop web apps" does not translate to easier to QA and maintain web apps.

It's kind of like etiquette, follow the standard and everyone will at least know how to coexist...

#4 By 2332 (216.41.45.78) at 1/20/2004 11:33:37 AM

#4 - "[E]asier for me to develop web apps" does not translate to easier to QA and maintain web apps.

Funny, when I did web development for 4 years it almost always did exactly that.

The fact of the matter is that the html of a web app is the most trival part of it. If IE makes it work, despite minor errors that are a pain to find and fix, then that makes my life easier.

Since IE is about 95% of the market, I couldn't care less about Netscape, or Opera, or Safari.

Ironically, I don't even use IE anymore. I use Firebird. Funny thing is, Firebird is just about as good at rendering "malformed" pages as IE is.

They realized that in order to compete, they would need to do all that IE does, and add stuff that makes it better on top of those features. That's exactly what they did, and it's one big reason I use Firebird.

So Hyatt should stop whining, and get coding.

#5 By 3339 (64.160.58.135) at 1/20/2004 12:40:26 PM

"Stupid comment by Apple to me, even if i agree that IE has made bad code a regular occurance on websites (including this one) as we don't have to worry about it much."

Byron, I think you are referring to the title which is PCPro's creation. Go to the original story on Hyatt's blog. http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/hyatt/

He isn't making a public statement for Apple, and he is actually making a rather technical point quite inline with your own and ch's.

And the final conclusion of Hyatt's is this: "The crux of the problem with implementing true error recovery is that it must be unambiguous. Every Web browser has to recover from malformed content in precisely the same way." He isn't making claims against what IE enables for designers; he is talking about how their error correction makes error correction for all other browser engines (and their developers) more difficult because error correction needs consistency.

RMD, you aren't familiar with who Dave is, are you?

This post was edited by sodajerk on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 at 15:04.

#6 By 3339 (64.160.58.135) at 1/20/2004 1:04:47 PM

By the way, Hyatt is primarily concerned with error correcting malformed XML and is simply using the larger issue of error correction as an analogy... When it comes to XML, I think it's a whole different issue ... that has been completely ignored by the PCPro story and most comments I've seen on this topic.

#7 By 3339 (64.160.58.135) at 1/20/2004 1:08:10 PM

... in fact, it looks like Hyatt pointed out exactly my last point last night after these stories started surfacing:

"Because enough people seem to be getting confused by my previous blog entry, let me clarify that I am talking about XML error handling and not HTML error handling. Obviously given the current state of the Web, a browser must be extremely good at handling malformed HTML and emulate WinIE as much as possible. We of course are actively working on that with Safari.

The reason I brought up HTML error handling while talking about XML error handling was to point out how much time and effort it costs developers simply to handle malformed content. Also for those who mistakenly interpreted this as an attack on WinIE, of course it isn't. WinIE had to emulate Netscape's error handling, so if you want to blame anyone, blame Netscape."

Do people feel stupid for not reading the direct source or what?

#8 By 3339 (64.160.58.135) at 1/20/2004 2:21:33 PM

Montana, check out this link (http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/hyatt/archives/2003_02.html), and scroll down to "Licensing Fun."

Dave discussed this ages ago. It's Mozilla's problem, not Apple's. Apple can take code from GPL/LGPL/MPL projects, but Mozilla cannot take code from LGPL projects. But... since Dave basically started all of the interesting projects and is still close with all the Mozilla guys, there isn't much of an issue. (He ends the above post telling Boris to look at the Safari code.) Mozilla is going on its own path because of certain idealogical issues. Hyatt and the whole Safari team definitely take the best of what is available from KHTML and Mozilla projects (again, he points out a number of areas where Safari uses code he or others developed for Mozilla)... The KHTML team reincorporates these changes. OmniWeb and some others are begining to use WebCore. GRE incorporates Mozilla stuff. There is definitely a trend to standardize on the best implementations in the non-IE world.

But it is Mozilla that is most limited and cannot sync with these other projects as greatly ... although Hyatt definitely openly shares with his old friends and fellow colleagues.

I don't see why Safari should fully standardize on Mozilla when Hyatt has full access to GRE, Mozilla, and KHTML, and he started, or worked with, or understands, or contributed to the code in both KHTML (he's only been working with it for about a year) and Mozilla (which he probably knows better than anyone), and he's able to pick and choose the best of both worlds. Not to mention that he has been routinely reverse-engineering behaviors from IE as to be compatible with it. I'd rather have the best of KHTML, GRE, Mozilla, and IE rather than just Mozilla.

This post was edited by sodajerk on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 at 14:52.

#9 By 2332 (216.41.45.78) at 1/20/2004 4:22:12 PM

No, I don't know who Hyatt is aside from the info I gathered from the article.

If he is talking about XML validation, I couldn't agree more. Of course, IE doesn't validate XML schema... only that it's a well formed document.

#10 By 3339 (64.160.58.135) at 1/20/2004 5:04:42 PM

Again, RMD, maybe you should READ the original source and the articles he is discussing. Yes, he is talking about XML validation; yes, IE doesn't error-correct XML nor does Mozilla nor does Safari. Exactly, the very basic facts he STARTS with.

Here's Hyatt's blog:
http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/hyatt/

Here's Mark Pilgrim's blog which presumably started the present discussion in response to a question posed by Brent Simmons (creator of NetNewsWire, who is building error correction into his RSS syndicator):
http://www.diveintomark.org/

Here's Mark's blog suggesting that XML should be error-corrected:
http://diveintomark.org/archives/2004/01/14/thought_experiment

Here's Mark's blog discussing the history of XML validation needing to be well-formed or no go, attributing the decision to Tim Bray:
http://diveintomark.org/archives/2004/01/16/draconianism

Here's Tim Bray's post about the decision made for XML error handling:
http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2004/01/16/DraconianHistory

Here's Tim's proposal for a conformance requirement in the spec:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-sgml-wg/1997Apr/0164.html

Rather than suggest Dave get busy coding, why don't you get busy reading...

rather than presuming.

This post was edited by sodajerk on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 at 19:32.

#11 By 3339 (64.160.58.135) at 1/20/2004 5:56:07 PM

"If he is"... I'm curious RMD. What makes you content to presume very inaccurate and foolish things from a poorly written article that you may or may not have even read, but when I point you to the direct source and also state exactly what he is saying, you remain sceptical and petulent, and you DEFINITELY choose NOT to read it?

Can you see your apparent prejudice and prejudgment?

Do you see anything wrong with that?

This post was edited by sodajerk on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 at 17:56.

#12 By 1845 (67.161.212.73) at 1/20/2004 6:54:38 PM

Jerk, chill, dude.

#13 By 3339 (64.160.58.135) at 1/20/2004 7:13:20 PM

Bob, stay out of it.

I don't see anything wrong with asking RMD about what he is thinking after he says something like "If he is talking about XML validation" immediately after providing a direct quote which states: "let me clarify that I am talking about XML error handling and not HTML error handling" and providing links.

#14 By 1845 (67.161.212.73) at 1/20/2004 9:39:23 PM

Jerk, if you want to make it prive, then you and RMD can email or IM each other. His contact info is posted on his site. Go for it. Otherwise, this is a public discussion.

You aren't simply asking him a question and pointing out some links. You're foaming at the mouth attacking him. There is a difference.

#15 By 3339 (64.160.58.135) at 1/20/2004 9:53:36 PM

aren't you talking to me individually? Go away! I am addressing a broad general issue: RMD is hypocritically happy to throw his head into the sand when reality doesn't agree with him, and he will gladly accept pabulum when it suits his needs (at least, quite obviously, in this case). I'm asking him why this is so, because generally I would regard him as an intelligent, literate, considerate person. I am asking him because it is a general theme and attribute of many members of this site, but it is all the more surprising coming from him.

No one has asked you to intervene. I haven't insulted anyone. I am not foaming at the mouth.

I AM simply asking him a question.

I am not even trying to repeat myself; you are forcing me to do that. I'm happy if RMD wants to avoid the question. I will interpret that my own way.

And... shouldn't I be insulted when he says "If he is talking about XML validation" immediately after providing a direct quote which states: "let me clarify that I am talking about XML error handling and not HTML error handling" and providing links, when I posted that information for the general welfare of the whole community and discussion?

This post was edited by sodajerk on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 at 22:32.

#16 By 1845 (67.161.212.73) at 1/20/2004 11:30:56 PM

lol

#17 By 2332 (65.221.182.2) at 1/20/2004 11:48:09 PM

jerk - What makes you content to presume very inaccurate and foolish things from a poorly written article that you may or may not have even read

Let's see. I read the article. He seemed to be talking about Internet Explorer in general. Internet Explorer is first and foremost a web browser that parses HTML, therefor it was both accurate and non-foolish to conclude he was talking about HTML parsing.

For instance, in the article he states:

"If we lived in a world where browsers could refuse to display malformed content"

Malformed content certainly suggests HTML.

jerk - RMD is hypocritically happy to throw his head into the sand when reality doesn't agree with him

Actually, I was at work. See, I have a job. I'm sure you have a job too (do you?), but obviously you have more time to dig deeply into every trivial article to try and find things you can use to attack people.

jer - when I point you to the direct source and also state exactly what he is saying, you remain sceptical and petulent

Funny, I thought I was conceding the point, not remaining skeptical, much less petulent. (Nice use of vocab by the way. Gold star.)

jerk - because generally I would regard him as an intelligent, literate, considerate person

Baloney. You regard me just as you regard everybody else on this board - with disrespect and contempt, regardless of the issue.

jerk - No one has asked you to intervene. I haven't insulted anyone. I am not foaming at the mouth.

Funny, it would seem that you have insulted me, and you certainly are in an agressive mood. You post two replies before I even read the first one.

jerk - I'm happy if RMD wants to avoid the question.

I'm in charge of a large software engineering project that I work on 12+ hours a day. If you consider that "avoiding the question", then sobeit.

Get a grip, man.

This post was edited by RMD on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 at 23:50.

#18 By 1845 (67.161.212.73) at 1/21/2004 12:13:07 AM

If you'll permit me to intrude on this conversation <grin>, RMD, I'd like to compliment you on your response.

#19 By 1845 (67.161.212.73) at 1/21/2004 1:31:08 AM

When we compile a few hundred lines of C#, C++, C, VB, Java, et al, we have to have syntactically perfect code. Period. Why should a few hundred lines of XML be any different?

This post was edited by BobSmith on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 at 01:31.

#20 By 3339 (64.160.58.135) at 1/21/2004 12:21:35 PM

This: "Let's see. I read the article. He seemed to be talking about Internet Explorer in general. Internet Explorer is first and foremost a web browser that parses HTML, therefor it was both accurate and non-foolish to conclude he was talking about HTML parsing. "

VS.

"let me clarify that I am talking about XML error handling and not HTML error handling"

means he's talking about HTML? Some vague, genral paraphrase that doesn't accurately recall the content of the story vs. a direct quote which explicitly states what he is talking about? Ok, whatever.

You read them, huh? Did you notice the great big titles by any chance? YOu know, the ones that said "XML Error Handling in Web Browsers", "XML, Not HTML" and "More on XML Error Handling."

"Malformed content certainly suggests HTML." Why? Since when? Doesn't "not HTML error handling" suggest he is NOT talking about HTML error handling?

"IF" means "I was conceding the point"? In what language?

"You post two replies before I even read the first one" only because Bob feels he needs to stick his nose into everything. I wasn't responding to you; I was responding to his TWO replies.

This post was edited by sodajerk on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 at 17:19.

#21 By 2332 (65.221.182.2) at 1/21/2004 9:41:27 PM

#27 - means he's talking about HTML? Some vague, genral paraphrase that doesn't accurately recall the content of the story vs. a direct quote which explicitly states what he is talking about? Ok, whatever.

Jerk... don't consider this an ad hominem attack or anything, but are you retarded? I explicitly said "I read the article", not that I followed the link in that article to his blog where he later clarified his remarks. Notice that he had to CLARIFY his remarks, suggesting that I was not the only one who thought he was talking about HTML.

You read them, huh? Did you notice the great big titles by any chance?

Them? Who said "them"? I said: "I read the article". You even quoted me saying that. Now who has a problem reading?

"IF" means "I was conceding the point"? In what language?

It's a statement of fact, moron. (Yes, now I'm getting annoyed.) The exact statement was:

If he is talking about XML validation, I couldn't agree more.

That literally means IF HE IS TALKING ABOUT XML VALIDATION, THEN I AGREE WITH HIM. If the first part is true, then the second part follows. A -> B. A = "he is talking about xml validation". B = "I agree." Since we all agree that the first part is true, that statement literally means that I agree with him. Understand now?

I wasn't responding to you; I was responding to his TWO replies.

Really? What board are you talking about, cause that's not what I see. I replied to you in post #12, you then replied TO ME in posts #13 and #15. BobSmith didn't post until #16. Did you look into the future, and if so, why didn't you address his future comments instead of attacking me twice? Ohh... this is fun!

You have some kind of personality disorder, sodajerk. Get some help.

This post was edited by RMD on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 at 21:45.

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