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Updated: Apple makes copycat jibe at Microsoft

Time: 17:06 EST/22:06 GMT | News Source: PCPro.co.uk | Posted By: Todd Richardson

Posters on display at Apple's Worldwide Developers Conference are taking an undisguied swipe at Microsoft's Longhorn, the next version of Windows. MacMinute reports that the banners make less-than-subtle suggestions that Redmond-based Microsoft might copy one or two things from Mac OS X 10.4 'Tiger', which will be previewed for the first time this evening.

Update: To check out the banners, click here.

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#1 By 8556 (12.217.173.227) at 6/28/2004 10:56:44 AM

Msucks: I don't believe that anyone doubts that Apple was and is, under Steve Jobs, more innovative than Microsoft. Sony's Beta was more innovative than VHS also. Microsoft has the superior marketing force and after assimilating Apples latest and most excellent features will surge ahead again in sales and influence.

One button mice suck.

#2 By 2459 (69.22.124.228) at 6/28/2004 11:05:19 AM

MacOS has gained more and more Windows features since OS 8.
OS X mirrors Windows more than it does older MacOS versions.

Anything to get some free press though, and keep the core blinded by the hype. As open as MS has been about Longhorn's featureset, it's not surprising "Tiger" could get similar features. As in the past, they'll likely be partial implementations hyped to give the appearance of being the same as the MS version.

#3 By 1643 (64.73.227.129) at 6/28/2004 1:20:42 PM

# 5 I don't think he saif that...stop the FUD and lies.

#4 By 2459 (69.22.124.228) at 6/28/2004 2:22:11 PM

OS X is currently (but wasn't always) based on Next.
OS X does not now and has not ever had an accelerated 3D UI, not to mention MS had such a UI running publicly well before OS X was near completion. #6, you haven't given any facts, only hype and inaccuracies.

From MacCentral http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/2004/06/28/liveupdate/

"Jobs said that Tiger will debut about 150 new features, including the ability to run any process in 64-bit, finally making use of some of the core architectural improvements introduced last year with the PowerPC 970 CPU that serves as the heart of the Power Mac G5 system. Also new is a search technology called "Spotlight" that Jobs said "is years ahead" of Microsoft's new operating system -- it works similarly to the song search technology in iTunes, and can find files and content in standard formats. What's more, it's extensible, and works with most current applications. It's integrated into the Finder, Address Book, Mail and System Preferences."

Who exactly is (trying to) copy whom??
More hype, and more attempts to beat MS to the punch, while only offering a shadow of the complete vision.

This post was edited by n4cer on Monday, June 28, 2004 at 14:32.

#5 By 3339 (64.160.58.135) at 6/28/2004 3:07:43 PM

n4cer, Apple's had the "Piles" patent for over 10 years. BeOS had these features for years and everyone who developed them for Be has been with Apple for over 2 years. If Apple is copying Microsoft (which they aren't... as has been said, these search features can be done and are being done without a database layer), then Microsoft is copying BeOS and other attempts at metadata- and db-driven file systems done or prototyped well before it. And, how exactly do you copy something that doesn't exist yet?

And MS did not have a 3D accelerated UI before OS X was near completion. Come on, dude.

#6 By 3 (81.100.93.146) at 6/28/2004 3:55:22 PM

and damn---ichat really blows messenger away at last with the multi-cam and group audio.

#7 By 2459 (69.22.124.228) at 6/28/2004 4:13:06 PM

WinFS does exist. There's developer documentation and actual OS builds available now from MS. MS has been working on what has become WinFS since at least 1992. According to some, MS thought they'd need it to compete with OS/2. BeOS didn't publicly debut until October 1995.

MS did have a 3D accelerated UI before OS X. It was called GDI2k. There was also Chromeffects (which, according to an MS employee, was demonstrated to Steve Jobs, and offered to him along with DX), and MSR's work previous to those projects. Apple still doesn't have an implementation that fully accelerates all rendering of their UI.

#8 By 3 (81.100.93.146) at 6/28/2004 4:25:16 PM

Chromeffects wasn't a OS wide 3D UI though was it, it was also rubbish which was why it got dumped! It was being made for developers to use as IE effects.

#9 By 2459 (69.22.124.228) at 6/28/2004 4:27:45 PM

Chromeffects wasn't but GDI2k was, as was the tech behind Task Gallery.

This post was edited by n4cer on Monday, June 28, 2004 at 16:28.

#10 By 3 (81.100.93.146) at 6/28/2004 4:34:55 PM

I guess you won't agree here anyway, but surely something like GDI2k doesn't compare to a proper OS? And if we're nitpicking, alphas of OS X were around before GDI2k was showing off some 3d UI. I think most people here are talking about a 3D accelerated OS UI. Not any random UI you can come up with.

#11 By 2459 (69.22.124.228) at 6/28/2004 4:44:02 PM

This is also what I'm talking about. All of the mentioned UI (except OS X) used the graphics card to accelerate rendering of the UI, including drawing of the actual UI elements. The OS X alphas (and OS X today) still did not accelerate drawing of the UI. OS X didn't even accelerate window management until the introduction of Quartz Extreme.

#12 By 11888 (64.230.8.103) at 6/28/2004 4:45:05 PM

Parkker's parents are clearly not monitoring his internet usage again.

#13 By 3339 (64.160.58.135) at 6/28/2004 5:02:06 PM

When GDI2K still can't render alphas correctly, who cares if it is hardware accelerated? Transparencies aren't what slow down OS X... so you are talking about a UI element (transparencies) which have actually shipped in the OS for 4 years and do not need HW acceleration when done properly... Nearly no one utilizes GDI2K, so to claim that it accelerates everything and is used throughout the OS is simply nonsense... It's not good enough to be used throughout Windows...

#14 By 3 (81.100.93.146) at 6/28/2004 5:04:05 PM

January/February is not a year away, least not in my 12 month year. Surely you should also be mentioning that this is a year and a half update instead of the usual yearly one you moan about Parkker.

#15 By 3339 (64.160.58.135) at 6/28/2004 5:04:14 PM

Please, n4cer, don't claim Cairo circa 1992 was ahead of BeOS. There were plenty of attempts at such systems before Cairo as well... but only more functional. Cairo was such a mess that it's still not available 13 years later and counting.

#16 By 2332 (65.221.182.2) at 6/28/2004 5:17:04 PM

Ah Apple... lots of fluff, very little content.

Does OS X.5 look as good as Longhorn will look? Maybe. Has Apple fudementally changed the way people will think about the relationship between documents, applications, and communications? No.

That's what taking Microsoft so long. It takes a long time to produce such as massive paradigm shift. There is lots of infrastructure to build (WinFS, Indigo, Avalon, WinFX), and lots of people they need to get on board.

What Apple has done is perhaps produce the least significant portion of Longhorn (Avalon) and pretend they're ahead of the game.

While Microsoft is really hunkering down and making Windows the best software platform (by FAR), Apple keeps slapping a pretty face on their OS and claiming victory.

If Longhorn works as planned, Apple will become an interesting footnote in the history of the PC. They're not going to know what hit them.

#17 By 2459 (69.22.124.228) at 6/28/2004 5:35:14 PM

GDI2k is not the same as GDI+. GDI+ is not accelerated.

After seeing "Tiger's" offerings, it's clear that Apple is trying to beat MS in their usual manner -- taking the basic idea and trying to sell it as the full vision.

The featureset targets many of the areas MS has repeatedly discussed and shown demos of. Few are fully comparable implementations, but it's enough to sell to the userbase and maintain the copycat hype when MS comes out to a wider audience.

#18 By 2459 (69.22.124.228) at 6/28/2004 5:37:25 PM

Yeah, I saw that stu. Another third-party dev bites it as Apple gets a Sidebar competitor (which doesn't even fit the paradigm of glancable data).

Nice take off of Apple's LH quip too :) (Konfab's homepage)

This post was edited by n4cer on Monday, June 28, 2004 at 17:39.

#19 By 3339 (64.160.58.135) at 6/28/2004 6:04:15 PM

"It takes a long time to produce such as massive paradigm shift. "

Or you can rapidly but steadily introduce evolutionary shifts. Live searching was already advanced a year ago. Now it searches metadata. And without a DB layer. In other words, Apple is where BeOS was years ago and a year or two ahead of MS. 10.5 (this is 10.4, not 10.5, RMD) will probably include the piles UI although queries are available with Tiger.

"(which doesn't even fit the paradigm of glanc[e]able data)."

I would say it DOES ... moreso than the sidebar. "Glanceable" data should NOT be persistent... it should only appear when you want to glance at it. In Tiger, hold one key, glance at it, let go of the key, it disappears.

#20 By 3339 (64.160.58.135) at 6/28/2004 6:25:15 PM

ssfreitas, "smart folders" are the core functionality, but "piles" have a very unique UI which would present contextual options, would display graphical feedback about the query, and would allow you to "browse" the query directly from the iconic representation.

From the Search/Spotlight window and from the Finder where you can create and modify "smart folders" you can access all the features, but there is not the significant UI change that piles would introduce.

However, I think we are essentially in agreement... Apple is slowing introducing features which do not perform the same way as WinFS, but which do accomplish the same goals/functionality. And all without reinventing the wheel... so adoption will be rather quick and seemless.

This post was edited by sodajerk on Monday, June 28, 2004 at 18:26.

#21 By 2459 (69.22.124.228) at 6/28/2004 6:42:00 PM

"I would say it DOES ... moreso than the sidebar. "Glanceable" data should NOT be persistent... it should only appear when you want to glance at it. In Tiger, hold one key, glance at it, let go of the key, it disappears. "

More like, stop what you're doing, press a key, wait for the context shift, refocus your vision and find the gadget you want, then go back to your desktop to resume your work. Glanceable would be like the system clock.

"What's the difference between Apple's implementation of system-wide metadata indexing and seamless multi-repository search and the one in Longhorn?"

For one thing, (just from looking at the product page) it doesn't seem to have any relational tracking capabilities. In Longhorn, the system can automate certain tasks and the acquisition of metadata for items based certain criteria. For instance, filling in the metadata and grouping pictures acquired based upon entries in your calendar.

"The only wheel-reinvention feather I see in the hat of Microsoft is their modular web services technology, but since it's (yet another) proprietary Microsoftian technology, I have to wonder how much adoption it'll get."

What are you talking about? All of MS' web services technology uses standardized protocols. It kinda has to in order to communicate with other web services vendors. That's what all the WS specs are about.

#22 By 3339 (64.160.58.135) at 6/28/2004 7:16:20 PM

"For one thing, (just from looking at the product page) it doesn't seem to have any relational tracking capabilities. In Longhorn, the system can automate certain tasks and the acquisition of metadata for items based certain criteria. For instance, filling in the metadata and grouping pictures acquired based upon entries in your calendar."

Sure it does. Your scenario sounds rather vague so I don't entirely follow it... but I see nothing that prevents it. In fact, the functionality all seems to be there.

"More like, stop what you're doing, press a key, wait for the context shift, refocus your vision and find the gadget you want, then go back to your desktop to resume your work. Glanceable would be like the system clock."

That sounds, despite your lame attempt to make holding down a key sound onerous-- after all, if I have to glance at the side of the screen, aren't I "stopping what I am doing, refocusing my attention, finding the gadget I want, then going back to my work"--the only difference is showing and hiding versus always showing and/or using a clickable widget to hide the sidebar, exactly what is meant by glanceable. Microsoft happens to confuse glanceable with always on, always present, but that's their lack of understanding.

This post was edited by sodajerk on Monday, June 28, 2004 at 19:22.

#23 By 3339 (64.160.58.135) at 6/28/2004 7:39:25 PM

Will Parkker learn to read?

"Tiger ships with 64-bit ready Xcode development tools, so you can take full advantage of the Tiger�s enhanced 64-bit capabilities right out of the box. Tiger�s new 64-bit pointers enable individual processes to access massive amounts of virtual memory. The enhanced kernel, plus a 64-bit version of libSystem, let command-line programs, background daemons and network services directly manipulate up to 16 exabytes of virtual memory. That�s enough to address all the physical memory on an Xserve G5� or a cluster of millions of them.

Tiger�s LP64 model for 64-bit pointers means that developers can easily port code written for other 64-bit UNIX systems. LP64 support in Tiger provides for 64-bit long, long long and void* as well as 32-bit int data types."

"Xcode gives you the tools for building and debugging 64-bit applications for PowerPC G5 and Mac OS X Tiger, as well as letting you create Fat Binaries that contain both 32-bit and 64-bit executables."

#24 By 3339 (64.160.58.135) at 6/28/2004 8:10:57 PM

libSystem, LP64, programs will have access to either 32- or 64-bit pointers, fat binary compatibility, and every thread having full access to 16 exabytes of memory is fake, huh?

Maybe even more significantly, Xcode will allow for auto-vectorization too. No more specialty Altivec coding is necessary. Woo hoo.

#25 By 2459 (69.22.124.228) at 6/28/2004 8:17:05 PM

With the sidebar, the content is arranged in one column. The content within will generally remain in the same order.

With Dashbord, there's a context shift, both with the system and the user. Plus, it's basically like a second desktop where you have the same potential for clutter. It'd be like in Windows, if you used the "show Desktop" key-combo, looked for something on the desktop, then switched back to the apps you were using. Or (to use a driving metaphor) turning your head to see what's behind you while driving (Dashboard) instead of just glancing in the rearview mirror (Sidebar).

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