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  Analyst group slams ODF, downplays Microsoft ISO abuses
Time: 01:17 EST/06:17 GMT | News Source: Ars Technica | Posted By: Kenneth van Surksum

A new report published by the Burton Group about XML-based office document formats touts Microsoft's Office Open XML (OOXML) format and questions the relevance of ODF, asserting that the ISO-standardized document format used in office suites from Sun, IBM, and other vendors will be relegated to "a relatively minor role" as OOXML gains traction.

The report asserts that "ODF addresses only a subset of what most organizations do with productivity applications today" and contends that the evolution of ODF will be "slow and complex" because of the dominant role of Sun in the ODF ecosystem. The Burton Group also questions the validity of the common perception that ODF and open-source office suites will gain acceptance in budget-constrained environments like government agencies in developing countries, citing Microsoft's aggressive pricing strategies in regions that are ripe for open-source adoption. The report suggests that the only value in ODF-based office suites for enterprise users is that companies will be able to use the threat of adoption as negotiating leverage to get better pricing from Microsoft.

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#1 By 28801 (65.90.202.10) at 1/15/2008 6:30:03 AM
"ODF addresses only a subset of what most organizations do with productivity applications today"

Seems to me I've heard that somewhere before...

#2 By 15406 (216.191.227.68) at 1/15/2008 10:18:46 AM
I prefer the BECTA report myself. Some highlights:

"1.16 Microsoft has not moved to address the interoperability concerns identified in our interim report. Office 2007 still does not effectively support the international ODF document standard. It has continued to seek approval for a second international document standard based on its Office 2007 file formats – a move which has attracted considerable controversy.

1.17 Microsoft has argued that the ODF standard does not adequately address the needs of users regarding access to documents stored via previous versions of Office, and that a further international standard is required. While the need for a second standard remains unresolved, it is clear that increasingly Microsoft’s competitors are using the existing ODF standard as their key file format.

1.18 We remain concerned about the approach taken to supporting ODF in Office 2007. While the product includes the functionality to read virtually every other relevant file format ‘out of the box’, the processes for dealing with ODF files are very cumbersome. We identified ten steps that users would need to take in order to locate and install the converter that gives Office 2007 the ability to access ODF files and note that the arrangements for opening and saving ODF files in Microsoft Office 2007 are not intuitive in that they deviate from the normal approach familiar to users. We believe that these arrangements present sufficient technical difficulties for the majority of users to make them disinclined to use competitor products and this may weaken competition.

1.19 We have discussed with Microsoft on a number of occasions its rationale for not providing effective integrated interoperability with the ODF document standard. We did not find the various explanations we received convincing.

1.20 We believe that the barriers Microsoft has placed in the way of users who want to use the file format that is increasingly common in competitor products will have the effect of limiting the use of such products. The interoperability that Microsoft makes available in Office 2007 for competitor products is less than it makes available for its own family of products. We have complained to the Office of Fair Trading (OFT) that this puts competition at risk and is an abuse of a dominant position by Microsoft. The OFT is considering our complaint."

Yep, that's our Microsoft -- king of interoperability. It has a broken 'bought & paid for' standard that only MS can implement. And they've already reneged on their promise to leave OOXML under the control of ISO if ratified. Do we *really* want to give MS the keys to the document kingdom again, especially after seeing how they've used file formats as a weapon against competition and a lock-in mechanism for customers?

#3 By 92283 (64.180.196.143) at 1/15/2008 10:22:11 AM
It looks like BECTA has trouble distinguishing between the clearly inadequate ODF, and the superior OOXML.


Humor from Wikipedia:

"The OpenDocument ISO specification does not contain a defined formula language. This means that ISO conforming files do not have to be compatible [21]. OASIS is working on creating a standard formula language for use in future versions of the format."

"The OpenDocument ISO specification does not allow for tables in presentations. This is being worked on for a later version of the OpenDocument specification, but was not included in the ISO submission version"

"Different applications using ODF as a standard document format have different methods of providing macro/scripting capabilities. There is no macro language specified in ODF. It is arguable whether there should be or not ."

"The ODF standard is insufficiently detailed, requiring excessive application specific namespace extensions to record document features. These application specific namespace extensions are not necessarily interoperable between ODF compliant applications."

"Java applets are described as native objects in the OpenDocument specification (§9.3.4). This means any full implementations will require a java virtual machine present from within the application."

"The Sun OpenDocument Patent Statement [25] applies to a future version of ODF only if Sun participates in development of that version. If Sun does not participate, then the assurance not seek to enforce any of its enforceable U.S. or foreign patents against any implementation will not apply."


ODF is a joke.

#4 By 15406 (216.191.227.68) at 1/15/2008 10:59:48 AM
#3: And despite those minor criticisms, ODF still managed to get ratified at ISO and is being implemented by dozens of apps. Meanwhile, OOXML has to bribe & cheat its way into the club and nobody but MS and some close partners can implement it. Even Office 2007 isn't compliant. That's the real joke here.

#5 By 92283 (64.180.196.143) at 1/15/2008 11:30:25 AM
Minor?

Ha ha ha ha.

No ability to enter formulas?

No macros?

No tables in presentations?

No interoperability?

Need to include the horrible java runtime?

Owned by Sun?


You call those minor?


What an Asshat.



#6 By 15406 (216.191.227.68) at 1/15/2008 11:41:12 AM
#5: ISO seems to think they're minor. Meanwhile, OOXML is so bad that MS can't even bribe its way in. See, ISO can fix whatever problems there are with ODF. Nobody can fix Microsoft and their penchant for monopoly abuse.

btw you really should talk to your master, Saint Ketchum, to get the new word of the month for you and the rest of the followers.

#7 By 92283 (64.180.196.143) at 1/15/2008 12:43:31 PM
Actually, OOXML is so good, the ODF partisans are blocking it.

As for ISO, the committees at the time were stacked with Microsoft haters. Microsoft is trying to remedy that.

If OOXML is sooo bad, no one will use it. But the hater contingent wants no competition.


"ISO can fix whatever problems there are with ODF"

Nope. Too late. Its a broken standard. Deeply flawed. No hope. Owned by Sun who wants to make secretaries write ODF automation in Java.

OOXML is the only hope for businesses.

This post was edited by NotParkerToo on Tuesday, January 15, 2008 at 12:44.

#8 By 15406 (216.191.227.68) at 1/15/2008 1:10:19 PM
#7: Wow, you certainly have a vivid imagination, or a paranoia complex.

This post was not edited by NotParkerToo on Tuesday, January 15, 2008 at 13:08.

#9 By 15406 (216.191.227.68) at 1/15/2008 1:40:40 PM
#7: Here is a post that will inform you of some of the incorrect things you have been regularly attributing to ODF. You're welcome.

http://blogs.sun.com/dancer/entry/dispelling_myths_around_odf

#10 By 92283 (64.180.196.143) at 1/15/2008 2:12:12 PM
#9 The entry in the Sun blog did not address the issue that Sun has patents on ODF.

However ... admitting that Sun has 3 out of 8 votes makes your accusation of paranoia moot. Add in IBM members and it is clear Microsoft haters control the comittee.

As for the rest of the article ... basically it admits ODF 1.0 is crap and will be fixed in 1.2.

The truth is, OOXML fixes the craptastic ODF 1.0.



#11 By 28801 (65.90.202.10) at 1/15/2008 2:25:07 PM
#10: It's certainly not crap - just insufficient in it's present state to provide what is needed in today's documents.

#12 By 15406 (216.191.227.68) at 1/15/2008 2:39:34 PM
#10: I'm not sure why you keep harping on the patents drum. Many ISO standards have patents attached. MPEG4 is an example. OOXML is loaded with MS patents, but for some strange reason you don't seem concerned about that.

#11: I wouldn't go as far as to say ODF is not sufficient as it really depends on what you're doing. For the vast majority of business documents, a simple word processor is sufficient. At any rate, even if ODF was horribly broken, it's still better to have an open standard that can be improved than a closed one that is fully in the hands of Microsoft.

#13 By 92283 (64.180.196.143) at 1/15/2008 3:16:59 PM
OOXML has a binding covenenant making OpenXML royalty free. Suns similar covenant only applies if Sun controls the standard.

ODF is completely inadequate as the Sun blog entry admits and they promize to fix it.

What it come down to is that ODF is flawed, they promise to fix it, and you say thats just fine because you hate Microsoft.

Any percieved flaws (which I've yet to see any proof of) in OpenXML are "insurmountable and carved in stone" because you are an Asshat that hates Microsoft.

This post was edited by NotParkerToo on Tuesday, January 15, 2008 at 15:17.

#14 By 15406 (216.191.227.68) at 1/16/2008 10:30:45 AM
#13: OOXML has a binding covenenant making OpenXML royalty free.

For v1.0 only. The covenant does not extend past that specific version.

Suns similar covenant only applies if Sun controls the standard.

No. Sun will only assert their patent rights in the event that they are somehow booted out of the ODF consortium. As stated earlier, Sun does not control ODF.

ODF is completely inadequate as the Sun blog entry admits and they promize to fix it.

No, the blog says that there is room for improvement and that is what they're going to do. Contrast that to MS, who will not admit that OOXML is broken, and they make no guarantees on fixing any of the problems.

What it come down to is that ODF is flawed, they promise to fix it, and you say thats just fine because you hate Microsoft.

Nothing is perfect. I'd rather have a flawed open standard that will be improved instead of a flawed closed standard that will be manipulated to maintain the MS monopoly.

Any percieved flaws (which I've yet to see any proof of) in OpenXML are "insurmountable and carved in stone" because you are an Asshat that hates Microsoft.

You wouldn't acknowledge any flaws in OOXML if they fell and hit you on the head. Google is your friend and there are lots of pages that expose OOXML for the mess it is. A few months ago, one math guy tore their math functions apart and showed that OOXML is just atrocious.

#15 By 28801 (65.90.202.10) at 1/16/2008 1:16:30 PM
#14: neither you nor that "math guy" know what you are talking about. OOXML needs those math functions to handle the excel math bug.

#16 By 92283 (142.32.208.232) at 1/16/2008 1:28:52 PM
#14 Its so boring arguing with a liar. You lose.

#17 By 15406 (216.191.227.68) at 1/16/2008 2:54:05 PM
#15: or the latest Excel "pwn your box" security bug...

http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9057439&intsrc=hm_list


#16: I think what you meant to say is that it's embarrassing arguing with me when I show that you don't know what you're talking about (again).

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