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Microsoft rivals: Modified OS isn't mediocre | |
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| Time: 13:41 EST/18:41 GMT | News Source: News.com | Posted By: Jonathan Tigner | ||
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Microsoft argues that if it were ordered to cut out Media Player, it would be forced to offer a substandard version of Windows which would be unable to run many popular programs. But RealNetworks demonstrated a version of a product known as "Windows XP Embedded" to show the operating system could work well without Windows Media Player, a source familiar with the case said. RealNetworks also took issue with statistics offered by Microsoft to show that a number of makers of personal computers put RealPlayer on their products. RealNetworks said that the computer makers put RealPlayer on only a very tiny percentage of their products, the source said. | ||
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| #1 By 2459 (24.175.137.164) at 11/14/2003 1:51:11 PM |
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I'm guessing Real chose to avoid a demonstration showing that applications requiring audio/video playback no longer work or are functionally impaired. Hopefully, the EU won't be gullible enough to fall for this. Kotelley wasn't. This post was edited by n4cer on Friday, November 14, 2003 at 13:52. |
| #2 By 1295 (216.84.210.100) at 11/14/2003 3:02:26 PM |
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Of course Windows XP Embedded works without Windows Media Player with the apps made for it. But those apps who use WMP in their apps would be broken as a result of removing windows media player from the system. Real needs to offer a better product and people will use it.
I know many people who do not use WMP for anything but streaming media on the net... because that's what its good at. Its catching up in the media playing world of MP3's (I think the reason its not catching up there is MS forces WMA to be used inside WMP if you copy your cd to your computer, they should embrace MP3 as an option). And from what it looks like... in Longhorn WMP will be a completely integrated part of the OS |
| #3 By 61 (24.92.223.181) at 11/14/2003 3:13:11 PM |
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Humpty: Beta versions of WMP8 came with the ability to rip to mp3, though it was lower-quality.... of course everyone cried foul, saying Microsoft was trying to promote WMA. In reality, this is not the case.
Simply, despite what everyone likes to think, MP3 is not free, and it is not an open standard. There are licensing costs attributed with it. Why should Microsoft take the cost of licensing MP3 when they are giving the player away for free, and making no money off the product? Now, iTunes is able to do this because, simply, iTunes was made to sell iPods, flat out. While Apple does not make any money off of iTunes, or iTMS, for that matter, they do make money off of the iPod sales that both generate. |
| #4 By 2459 (24.175.137.164) at 11/14/2003 3:48:25 PM |
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Also, Humpty, mp3 is an option in WMP.
There's a link right there in the "Copy Music" menu called "Learn more about mp3 formats". Click on it and purchase the mp3 decoder of your choice if you want to rip mp3 with WMP. |
| #5 By 2960 (68.100.36.242) at 11/14/2003 4:54:27 PM |
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"Why should Microsoft take the cost of licensing MP3 when they are giving the player away for free, and making no money off the product?"
Microsoft makes money off of _everything_, just not always directly. TL |
| #6 By 1845 (67.161.212.73) at 11/14/2003 5:08:20 PM |
| They make money from Rotor? |
| #7 By 1845 (67.161.212.73) at 11/14/2003 9:31:09 PM |
| Neowinians are a disease. ;-) |
| #8 By 2231 (68.100.199.34) at 11/14/2003 11:06:55 PM |
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If WMP’s market share gets to the level of IE all development will stop (other than for DRM and maybe security fixes). IE proved that.
I would like to have the choice of a stripped down Windows if for no other reason than it would scare Microsoft. Fear would motivate them to improve the products and their security. |
| #9 By 20 (67.9.179.51) at 11/14/2003 11:21:03 PM |
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Any time some loser company wants MS to remove something so that said loser company can mask the fact that their product stinks, MS should still include the shortcut to the removed product, but have it pop up a warning or explanation.
For example, any time someone clicks on the WMP link or uses any program that uses the WMP API in the background, a pop-up should appear: ----------- NOTE: Since the EU and Real, Inc. think that no one uses this functionality, it has been removed by court order. If you wish to use WMP, please download it (here). If you think Windows should include this functionality out-of-the-box, please send comments to ceo@realnetworks.com ----------- |
| #10 By 2459 (24.175.137.164) at 11/15/2003 3:42:24 AM |
| #15, IE's development hasn't stopped. There are improvements coming in XP SP2 as well as Longhorn. |
| #11 By 1295 (216.84.210.100) at 11/15/2003 11:19:20 AM |
| CPUGuy - Thanks for the info... I just assumed that they didn't want to support it since everything else does... and as we all know assumtions are the muther of all f*ckups |
| #12 By 1845 (67.161.212.73) at 11/15/2003 4:49:00 PM |
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Halcyon, it would immediately harm any ISV who ships a product that expects Windows Media Player to be present. Yes, going forward they can include WMP in thier setup routines, but anything on the market right now would be broken.
I'm sure such a decision would harm many people that depend on WMP. |
| #13 By 1845 (67.161.212.73) at 11/15/2003 8:51:43 PM |
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Actually, the default media player does not good whatsoever nor does the DirectShow API, if you have an app bound to WMPs ProgID...the way most business apps are coded. There is no substitute for a missing ProgID and the COM interfaces associated with it.
No, it is not a non-issue. If it were a non-issue, that it is oh so easy to just go and get the app, then why not just include it in the first place? If it is oh so easy, why aren't the competitors satisfied with users downloading their apps? If it were oh so easy, Sun never would have moaned and groaned about the JRE not being installed nor would they have worked with OEMs for it to be pre-installed. The number of business apps (custom) that rely on WMP is large. The number of intranet apps that rely on WMP is large. The number of websitest that rely on WMP is large. I know of no business apps that use QuickTime. In fact, other than iTunes, I know of know consumer app that requires QuickTime. |
| #14 By 6253 (24.1.206.27) at 11/15/2003 11:32:18 PM |
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BobSmith, it's easy for people with limited exposure to assume that they've seen lots of business/consumer apps. But if you don't like sushi to begin with, you probably don't go to sushi bars, so it's easy to assume that nobody ever eats it. You never see it.
Tens of thousands of primary-care/general-practice physicians (as well as ob-gyn and clinicians in 9 subspecialties) use the Windows app UpToDate to access the latest medical information and research. UpToDate uses QuickTime. Perhaps QuickTime has saved your life, and you didn't even know your doctor was using it. Apps produced by A.D.A.M. are other examples of QuickTime in the Health Information field. Among professional astronomers and amateur astronomy buffs, Starry Night is the most well-known astronomy software in the world. Both the Windows and Mac versions rely upon QuickTime extensively. Chemistry educators and students may be familiar with Falcon Software's line of chemistry courseware and class/lab management systems which rely upon QuickTime, as do materials published on CD by the American Chemical Society's JCE division. Users of software from Windows XP to Dreamweaver MX may be familiar with Lynda.com, which produces CD and online training material for organizations and consumers. Many titles depend on QuickTime. Even tiny publishers with a single CD title (such as Brainviews with their Animated Brain, or Jaspire with Rock Climbing 101) use QuickTime for Windows. If you're not a professional educator or a parent who homeschools your children, you probably haven't heard of Riverdeep, but you may have heard of Riverdeep subsidiaries like Broderbund which produces the Carmen Sandiego series of educational software, or TLC which makes the Reader Rabbit series. These use QuickTime on both Windows and Mac. There is even a tiny software vendor based in Redmond, WA who has used QuickTime for Windows in consumer and business apps. Care to guess the manufacturer of the Ultimate Frank Lloyd Wright CD? Hint: it's the same tiny company which publishes Encarta, also a QuickTime app. In fact, if you install Encarta 2003 on top of WMP 9, Encarta not only installs QuickTime 5.02 for Windows, it also breaks WMP 9! This is a known bug, requiring re-install of WMP 9 to fix. In 1999, the Microsoft Sales Specialist program (a certification for Microsoft's internal sales force, as well as the sales staff of Microsoft Certified Solution Providers [known as Microsoft Certified Partners today] in the United States) produced and distributed a training CD which made extensive use of QuickTime for Windows. The MSS program was discontinued in 2000, but not before I personally earned my MSS certification, thanks to QuickTime. |
| #15 By 1845 (67.161.212.73) at 11/15/2003 11:43:55 PM |
| Thanks for the education. I was clearly mistaken about QT. Still, it doesn't dillute my point regarding APIs and apps that rely on WMP. |
| #16 By 1295 (68.97.186.211) at 11/16/2003 9:02:23 AM |
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Halcyon-X12 - Bobsmith is right. It is not even close to a none issue. If an app uses WMP as an embedded control it is tied to the specific ProdID. If an app simply launches an audio or video file than it is not dependant on the media player (only the codecs).
What MS is saying is right now me and anyone else as a developer and 100% assume that WMP is on a windows machine. So in building and deploying an app I don't have to do squat to offer that functionality, in fact its the best example of code reuse and its free from MS for any developer to use. Any app that is available like that right now, if the EU has its way, will be forced have their users download WMP rather than just having it like now. This same story is true about Internet Explorer. Thousands of apps use Internet Explorer and, if stripped from Windows, would require the users of those thousand or so apps to download IE instead of it just working like usual. Now I know what you are saying, "People can just download it". Well part of being an OS is to provide features for Developers. MS, I think, takes that very seriously. Not to long ago you had to download Networking software and the like, things which we expect to have in a computer today and which are absolutely needed by the majority of users. It is only a natural progression to include both a multimedia application and a web browser application [built-in] to the OS for developers to use just like developers can decide to use networking w/o a second thought. Sure its no longer a background service, but they are just as needed in the world of computing today asn the TCP/IP stack. What does suck about that is those companies who provide the software that MS is offering for free to both the user and developers are going to have to make sure that a user has a reason to download their stuff. Personally I download WinAmp for MP3's and use WMP for streaming. I could use RealNetworks but everytime I download and try it I am disappointed. The same is about to become untrue with Mozilla (the browser not the mail software) I think it has started to come around to giving IE a run for its money. But even if I use Mozilla... I EXPECT IE to be on windows because so many apps depend on it. True is... you have to look past the obvious in these arguments about bundling and understand exactly who gets impacted buy the strippage. Instead of downloading Kazaa for instance you would have to download Kazaa, IE, and WMP to run it. Boy that sounds like a Substandard OS to me... especially in year 2003 standards. |
| #17 By 135 (208.186.90.91) at 11/16/2003 12:26:08 PM |
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It seems to me this isn't like the browser thing...
Each one of these video apps has their own proprietary video formats. |
| #18 By 1295 (216.84.210.100) at 11/16/2003 5:14:54 PM |
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That's an interesting point soda. I guess that does play into the decision... and again Real Networks sole business depends on Content Providing/Advertising as well as the server sales. That depends on their free clients distribution.
In that relm I'd have to side more towards Real Networks, but I still think it is a basic necessity of a user today and with that said its almost expected that MS continue to provide that basic functionality natively in the OS. Its a tough battle... you could argue that Real needs to have a better product in order to get users to dl their software but MS does have an advantage since Service Providers can go ahead and bet that 90% of the available users will have WMP and just go with it. I personally feel that MS should keep it in there and let Real duke it out with the OEM's to get their product on board and primary when the system ships... I do think it is unfair to an extent to not give MS that option (default install and set to primary from the OEM) There are arguments for both sides and both are good arguments. But what ultimately the "Laws" are designed to do are protect the consumer not the company. Real has the ability and option and means to compete against WMP and there hasn't been any "hurting" of the consumers. I think that whenever a decision is this cloudy the government should stay out of it. Let the consumers decide. If they (consumers) want Real Networks products and services then they will use them. The government (US || EU) should not be making these decisions for the consumer and should stand back and wait until there is an obvious reason to take either side. |
| #19 By 12071 (203.185.215.149) at 11/16/2003 7:21:47 PM |
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#28 "Now I know what you are saying, "People can just download it". "
Yes or it should be provided on the CD. How many games/applications have you installed that require DirectX that DIDN'T have DirectX on the CD? none? They all come with DirectX even though the developer knows it'll already be installed. What they don't know is if the version they need is installed - but the same is true for IE, WMP etc etc. If a developer requires WMP for the application, get them to include it as part of the installation - that way they can ensure that the end user has at least the version of WMP that they require for their functionality. This is nothing more than Microsoft bundling their own application with their own OS to increase market share for WMP - because we all know that the majority of users will think "I've got an application to play my music and videos... why would I bother trying to find anything else". Having said that however there is a good reason to have a media application installed - so maybe the end result should be don't install anything or give the user a choice. |
| #20 By 1845 (67.161.212.73) at 11/17/2003 5:28:12 PM |
| Had it never been distrib'ed with the OS, there wouldn't be a prob. Since it has been though, I and many other devs expect it to be there. The issue (with me) isn't with architecture. The issue is with breaking existing code. |
| #21 By 1845 (67.161.212.73) at 11/17/2003 6:15:39 PM |
| Um, if WMP isn't there, an app that depends on it will be broken. |
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