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More Than Just Canada: Microsoft Debating World-Wide MCSE Name Change | |
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| Time: 07:50 EST/12:50 GMT | News Source: CertCities.com | Posted By: Todd Richardson | ||
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Microsoft Certified Professional Magazine reports in its July 2001 issue that Microsoft is considering a world-wide revision of the Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer (MCSE) moniker. The article, which appears on page 16 of the issue, says that "Microsoft has considered following suit with IBM and Cisco, both of which use 'expert' in the name of their premier credentials...[Microsoft is] also debating the possibility of revamping the title altogether." Eckhardt Bohme, a certification manager for Microsoft, is cited as the source of the information. Although it has previously been speculated that Microsoft would change "Engineer" to "Expert" for Canadian MCSEs due to conflicts with licensing boards there, the article is the first time that Microsoft has publicly acknowledged that it is considering changing the name of the title for all MCSEs, or perhaps even scrapping the acronym for something else altogether. | ||
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| #1 By 2231 (164.86.99.3) at 1/16/2003 9:01:21 AM |
| MCSE is an abbreviation, not an acronym. |
| #2 By 6859 (204.71.100.216) at 1/16/2003 9:06:24 AM |
|
Doug,
I doubt they'll lose people over the change of one word. After all, it's not that big of a deal and it's not like they're going to lose their certifications--MS is just changing the definition of one of the letters in "MCSE," and "expert" is more general than "engineer," which many found to be misleading anyway. Schwit, good catch on the abbreviation/acronym thing... |
| #3 By 4209 (67.97.216.252) at 1/16/2003 9:49:37 AM |
| Well you are not an engineer so the engineering people get a little irratated at the name. Now I actually am an Engineer so I guess I can keep the name. To me the cert was just to get the knowledge of the diferences between Nt 4.0 and 2000. I did not want to take the time to play with it as I had other work to do so I took the class and got the cert. I get no more money for this, just the nice letters to put behind my name. I have the experience and that is really all I have ever needed to get a job. |
| #4 By 1845 (12.209.152.69) at 1/16/2003 10:02:56 AM |
|
Acronym: A word formed from the initial letters of a name, such as WAC for Women's Army Corps, or by combining initial letters or parts of a series of words, such as radar for radio detecting and ranging.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=acronym So is MCSE not an acronym because it doesn't form a word? |
| #5 By 135 (209.180.28.6) at 1/16/2003 10:15:16 AM |
|
Certifications are somewhat valuable as you are forced to learn subtle nuances in order to obtain them. I have both the MCSE-NT4 and GIAC. The GIAC certainly was a lot harder, but I still learned some valuable info with the MCSE. GIAC required a 40 page paper, whereas for the MCSE I just went in one day after spending a week with Exam Cram books and took all the tests.
Now knowing how to apply the information correctly is not something a certification teaches. While I do think the MCSE has been watered down because of the vast number of paper-MCSEs, I have a challenge for anybody saying it's worthless. I'll quiz on learning points from the MCSE exams, and we'll see how many they get correct. |
| #6 By 6859 (204.71.100.217) at 1/16/2003 11:12:51 AM |
| Bob, I think the issue is more on "is the term (as reduced) easily, and clearly pronouncable." WAC is kinda clear (like "whack"), bit MCSE is not ("mick-see"?). SCSI falls into the same boat. |
| #7 By 6859 (204.71.100.216) at 1/16/2003 11:50:43 AM |
| JaggedFlame, actually no. I've heard some people call it "sexy". |
| #8 By 1845 (12.209.152.69) at 1/16/2003 11:54:51 AM |
|
Sexy? I've only ever heard it called "skuzee". Intresting, since IDE I've never hear pronounced - I'd - but only EYE DEE EE.
Anyway, so acronyms are a subset of abbreviations. I've learned something new today. 1. The act or product of shortening. 2. A shortened form of a word or phrase used chiefly in writing to represent the complete form, such as Mass. for Massachusetts or USMC for United States Marine Corps. http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Abbreviation |
| #9 By 371 (217.8.111.40) at 1/16/2003 12:26:22 PM |
|
This is 1,5 years old, or am I missing something. I think this all went passed, it is 2003 now and it is still engineer. The survey on mcpmag does not exist anymore, not strange after 1,5 years. Why is this posted now??
Bink |
| #10 By 665 (64.126.91.172) at 1/16/2003 12:34:46 PM |
| It makes for good discussion:) |
| #11 By 3339 (65.198.47.10) at 1/16/2003 1:32:38 PM |
| soda, who cares about your certification. The fact is an MCSE does not make you a certified engineer. Every country (and every US state) has procedures for certifying REAL engineers. With abbrev's like CPE, CPME, etc... I wouldn't want anyone to have the misguided impression that an MCSE was a REAL engineer. |
| #12 By 135 (209.180.28.6) at 1/16/2003 1:50:29 PM |
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jerky boy - "I wouldn't want anyone to have the misguided impression that an MCSE was a REAL engineer. "
Engineer means someone who is trained to operate an engine. Notice how the Engineer is Engine with er added? Do you know anything about how words are formed? So how many Engineers do you know of who know how to operate a train engine? |
| #13 By 3339 (65.198.47.10) at 1/16/2003 2:05:42 PM |
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Boy, soda, you are so wrong:
"Middle English enginour, from Old French engigneor, from Medieval Latin ingenitor, contriver, from ingenire, to contrive, from Latin ingenium, ability." Do you really have no idea what an engineer is? Do you not see a difference between the certification of a civil, structural, mechanical, geotechnical, electrical engineer and an MCSE? Do you know anything about the certification and exam process required to become a Professional Engineer in the United States? It's as rigorous, if not more so, than taking the Series 7 or a similar certification process. We aren't talking about pimply-faced tech support guys being sent to a few 2 week classes by their employer. |
| #14 By 6859 (204.71.100.217) at 1/16/2003 2:58:20 PM |
|
So, you're saying (complete with dictionary in hand) that "engineer" = "ability/able/capable/knowledgable" Right?
With that, then anyone who can do anything at a reasonable level is an "engineer" of type. Woohoo! I'm a "certified automobile drving engineer"! Sweet! |
| #15 By 3339 (65.198.47.10) at 1/16/2003 3:05:37 PM |
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Cthulhu, I'm trying to figure out right now if you or sodablue is stupider.
I was not saying that a word means its etymology. My point was the word which is "engineer" today existed in the 1300s--and really even much earlier--to designate a person with technical design expertise. When were trains invented? Now my main point was that a "certified engineer" has educational, technical, and legal implications throughout the world, and an MCSE doesn't compare to these skilled experts. Do you or anyone actually think an MCSE is a qualified ENGINEER? Please. If you do, you haven't met the majority of MCSEs? But if you want to be an idiot, you might as well call yourself an architect too. Architect simply derives to builder. Have you ever built anything? Try to pass yourself as an architect or an engineer and see everyone laugh at you. This post was edited by sodajerk on Thursday, January 16, 2003 at 15:29. |
| #16 By 4209 (67.97.216.252) at 1/16/2003 3:52:08 PM |
| SodaJerk, before you rip on people for being stupid, you may want to use a word that exists. Stupider is not a word, the correct way would be more stupid. Anyhow yes you are right the Certification for an Engineer is very hard. They check references and previous work and many other things to certify you. I am not a Certified Engineer only one by Degree, as I did not need to get certified since I am not really in the Electrical Engineering field anymore. I was goign to become a Certified Broadcast Engineer but did not. Anyhow I did not need my MCSE for anything I just got it for the heck of it. |
| #17 By 6859 (204.71.100.217) at 1/16/2003 4:20:59 PM |
|
two points...
(1) "stupider" is a word, I thought "more stupid" was correct, but apparently both are ok... (2) SodaJerk, apparently you don't understand sarcasm |
| #18 By 3339 (65.198.47.10) at 1/16/2003 4:23:44 PM |
|
mctwin, I am aware of the more correctness (and yes, I said that for effect too) of more stupid, but I prefered stupider for my point. Cthulu and soda are making up stupid excuses to deflect the argument from something that is very simple. You know--they keep getting stupiderer! (Ha Ha -- it's a joke)
Cthulu, I get the sarcasm--that doesn't mean that it wasn't idiotic and wrong. This post was edited by sodajerk on Thursday, January 16, 2003 at 17:28. |
| #19 By 135 (209.180.28.6) at 1/16/2003 5:35:23 PM |
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jerky boy - "My point was the word which is "engineer" today existed in the 1300s--and really even much earlier--to designate a person with technical design expertise."
Hehe. So the use of the word Engineer in MCSE is correct. What was your point again? |
| #20 By 3339 (65.198.47.10) at 1/16/2003 5:47:11 PM |
|
soda, are you just trying to be a petulent idiot? You know my point. MCSE is an arbitrary and commercial designation granted by a corporation. Certified Engineers throughout the world are college-graduated engineers, with working experience in their area of expertise, who have passed a series of examinations that rival anything they encountered at college, maybe even post graduate. These certifications are regualted by governments and are necessary when evaluating certain contract work. There is no reason for the confusion. Changing the name, changes nothing--the qualifications, the test, nothing. So make the change.
As for what my point was for explaining that engineer is a very ancient word--my point there was that you were completely wrong when you suggested that "Engineer means someone who is trained to operate an engine. Notice how the Engineer is Engine with er added?" and that I in fact do understand the etymology of said word unlike you who falsely asked me "Do you know anything about how words are formed?" when, in fact, you did not at all. That's all. This is a non-issue. They should make the change and be done with it. And: You don't know what you are talking about. You presumed to know what I know. As usual, you were wrong. And you look like an idiot for suggesting an engineer is someone who runs an engine. Is it clear what my point was now. |
| #21 By 6859 (204.71.100.216) at 1/16/2003 6:02:08 PM |
| 1804... |
| #22 By 135 (208.50.206.187) at 1/16/2003 10:13:32 PM |
|
Jerky Boy - "soda, are you just trying to be a petulent idiot?"
Why is it always insults with you? I just think it's funny... My father has a MSEE, and I started out in college as EE before switching to CS. I suspect I have a better idea of what Engineer means than yourself. This debate comes up periodically, and it's always funny. The only people who really even seem to care are the Industrial Engineers and Civil Engineers, who really shouldn't be considered real Engineers to begin with. The only reason I can see that you care is because you can use up some of your negative energy bashing Microsoft. I always get a good chuckle out of your posts. I know that bugs the hell out of you. |
| #23 By 135 (208.50.206.187) at 1/17/2003 12:17:43 AM |
|
The idea of P.E., or Professional Engineer primarily applies to Civil & Construction Engineering, i.e. those involved in building structures. When they talk about Electrical Engineering it is in relationship to designing electrical systems for structures. When they talk about Mechanical Engineering it is in relationship to building HVAC systems, again for structures.
http://www.dca.ca.gov/pels/consumer_guide.pdf Now what's interesting about PE is it doesn't necessarily require a college degree, you can gain this experience through apprenticeships and such. Now there is the college idea of Engineering... Degrees like EE, ME, ChemE, CerE, CptrE, IndE and so forth don't build structures. They make other things like radios, computers, cars and so forth. Now there are some like Nuclear Engineering which probably require a special cert in addition to the college degree. The MCSE name really applies to what one might call Network Engineers, similar to CNE and so forth. The idea being that Network Engineers design networks, right? These are completely different markets and completely different meanings, and one is not likely to confuse a CNE or MCSE as someone who is going to come in and design a elevator system for your 40 story office tower. Jerky boy and others would have you believe this causes great confusion. It doesn't. He's only interested in beating up on Microsoft. |
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