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Microsoft-led group warns US government off open source | |
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| Time: 11:04 EST/16:04 GMT | News Source: Silicon | Posted By: Robert Stein | ||
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An organisation backed by Microsoft, Cisco and Intel is arguing against the promotion of open-source software by the US government. The US Defense Department has been told it should think twice before embracing open-source software by the Initiative for Software Choice, which counts Microsoft, Cisco Systems and Intel among its backers The group said the department should "avoid crafting needless and potentially detrimental IT policy to promote the use" of open-source software. | ||
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| #1 By 61 (65.32.170.1) at 11/30/2002 12:07:41 PM |
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gg, no I never wondered why the NSA released a secured version of Linux.... they did it because Linux is open source, and they can, while Windows is closed source, and thus don't have any code control.... HOWEVER, Microsoft has submitted Windows to the NSA in order to get reccomendations on hightening the security of it's Windowsd products (hence, the whole NSAKey fiasco of the past).
If you are going to make an argument, at least make one that has SOME berring, your arguments aren't even really arguments, as they are not based on any sort of fact, nor do they truely make sense. linuxhippe: First, it's spelled whinners, second, they aren't whinning to the government, they are stating their position, telling them that they think that the government is going down the wrong path in choosing open source. Now whinning is what Netscape, Be, Sun, etc.... is doing in the courts. They are doing nothing more than taking Microsoft to court just because they were beaten by Microsoft and are now calling foul due to the Judge Penfield's 'Findings of Fact'... in my opinion, they are no better than ambulence chasing lawyers. Rather than truely competing in the marketplace, they are competing in the courts, unfounded or not. |
| #2 By 61 (65.32.170.1) at 11/30/2002 3:48:22 PM |
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Anal: Well, I've got an excuse, been working on my term paper for the past 2 days straight... maybe I should do a quick re-read to make sure it's not a bunch of senseless babble.
Either way though, the facts are still the same. gg: yes, as I said, Microsoft submitted Windows to the NSA so they could make recommendations bwoa: I hate to tell you this, but decent American made cars are few and far between (the Hummer being a major exception, although, they are gas guzlers). Hondas are not geek cars. Now, you want a geeks car, check out GM's new HighWire, completely redesigned the concept of the car itself. Instead of a steering collumn, it uses a fly by wire type device (what is used in modern aircrafts), this, while getting rid of the much less reliable and more expensive mechanical side, also allows them to do things such as just moving the steering wheel over to the other side of the car with a simple pull of a lever. Also, it has a design such that if you want a sporty look, you merely change the body, and keep the framework, the guts, etc... This post was edited by CPUGuy on Saturday, November 30, 2002 at 15:54. |
| #3 By 135 (208.50.206.187) at 11/30/2002 3:59:14 PM |
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gg: Why can't the NSA view the Windows source code?
It seems to me that Microsoft owns the source and can do with it what they want, include showing it to the NSA for review. Or bringing in third party auditors from RSA labs, etc. |
| #4 By 61 (65.32.170.1) at 11/30/2002 4:15:25 PM |
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Bwoa, I didn't say GM wasn't American, I said that it was a geek car.
Second, as stated above, using more gas only increases our reliability on foriegn oil (arab nations). Guess what, that's not America. Third, tell me ONE thing about Europe that is so horrible that you classify them as 3rd world. You show traditional American stupidity and ingorance that everyone in the world talks about. Natioanalism is what started WW2, don't do the same thing today. |
| #5 By 1845 (12.254.162.111) at 11/30/2002 5:24:34 PM |
| gg - tax evasion is illegal. If Microsoft is committing tax evasion, you can bet that there would be SEC and IRS investigation. If you mean that they are good at using the tax laws to their advantage, that is a different story. This is really no different from any of us itemizing and taking deductions or incorporating for the tax benefits LLC's or S Corps offer. So far as I am aware what Microsoft has done with respect to tax filings is very legal. Do you have evidence to the contrary? |
| #6 By 7754 (209.98.24.241) at 11/30/2002 5:59:56 PM |
| Whoa, folks... was there a little extra testosterone in the turkey this year, or what? Can we keep the subject matter to Open Source, Windows, and other computing topics? The dialogs here will carry a lot of unnecessary baggage if we choose to participate in discussions on racism, Europe vs. America and nationalism, brands of cars we drive, religion, politics, etc. |
| #7 By 61 (65.32.170.1) at 11/30/2002 9:00:20 PM |
| Peter, Europe, after WW2 has been very accepting to Jews, especially in Germany itself.... but even if you were write about the anti-semitism, how does that classify European countries as 3rd world? |
| #8 By 135 (208.50.206.187) at 11/30/2002 9:23:07 PM |
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gg: Corporations are different from people in that it is not as easy to measure what a corporations income actually is. You'd be amazed at just how difficult it is to keep track of that.
But hey, at least they aren't moving their headquarters off shore to evade taxes completely, yet still bid on government contracts. Now that's what I call an unpatriotic activity. |
| #9 By 8589 (66.169.174.34) at 11/30/2002 9:43:31 PM |
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Nothing wrong in Microsoft trying to protect its own interests. However, we live in a free market society, and I remember back in 1996 that at least one Government agency was using OS/2.
What is this thing about software users being all or nothing? Why not have fun with what is out there. Especially if it is free!!!! I visit Linux sites, and many new Linux users feel they have to call Microsoft the "Beast" in order to post there. Old-time Linux users, at least the ones I know, don't give a rats behind what OS you use. But if you do use Linux, and you have a question, they are more than willing to give you hand, or at least lead you in the right direction. This is not an all or nothing scenario. |
| #10 By 1845 (12.254.162.111) at 11/30/2002 10:16:30 PM |
| Taxes. No offense to you gg. In general I think many folks that complain about what they call corporate tax evasion really don't know much about the subject. Further, they usually don't know what is available to the common man. I know many people that have looked seriously into personal corporate entities (primarily S corps and LLCs). Some of them have talked to accountants and determined that a personal entity would be beneficial to them. They are good for some and not good for others. The point here, is that even on the lower end of the totum pole, there are many different options available. I don't consider it a loophole or evasion if a C corp obeys the law. I don't consider it a loophole or evasion if a W2'er finds out that incorporating and becoming a contracter would be better for him. I do consider it foolish to complain about the tax code when you know little about it. I consider it even more foolish to not investigate how you can use the tax code to your advantage. K, I'm done with my rant. :-) |
| #11 By 2332 (65.221.182.3) at 11/30/2002 11:09:49 PM |
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#25 -"America we don't have to explain the need for anything we just buy"
Correct. However, if what you buy hurts those around you, then you DO have to explain it, and its part of the government's job to make sure you stop hurting those people. (Alas, it is very unlikely they ever will because there is a helluva lot of money in both selling the gas guzzlers, and in selling the black drug that runs them.) How does a gas guzzler hurt those around you? Well, the pollution from your guzzler is primarily CO2 and CO, both of which are greenhouse gases. The greenhouse affect has the potential to cause quite a bit of harm. (Let me guess, you don't "believe" in the greenhouse effect. Uh huh... how convenient.) |
| #12 By 2332 (65.221.182.3) at 11/30/2002 11:10:13 PM |
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#30 - "Somebody tell me the last time the government did anything right or for the people?"
You're kidding right? Hell, I'm a libertarian, but I'm not so delusional as to think the government serves no purpose, or has never done anything "right". If you think smaller is always better, take a look as to what happened under the Articles of Confederation. The Articles created an impotent federal government, and the result was wide spread chaos and the near destruction of our young country. Anyway, a few good things the government does: 1.) Police / Justice System What is more preferable, a government monopoly on force that is regulated by rules that are voted for democratically... OR... every jackass has a big ass gun and is responsible for protecting himself with whatever means he deems necessary. There MUST be a monopoly on force for a society to grow and flourish. If you don't believe me, find me a single example of a society that operates via anarchy and is even mildly modern. Similarly, you must have a central judicial system to ensure laws are applied equally and fairly to all. 2.) Military Kinda related to #1. Do you honestly think it would be possible to defend the country these days without an organization military with a central hierarchy of command? Again, find me a single example. 3.) Monetary Policy Think "unfettered" capitalism is the ideal way to go? Guess what, it would be if everybody had approximately equal knowledge... but most people are stupid. For a good example of what happens when you have unfettered capitalism, look up "The Great Depression". Monetary policy (which started evolving out of the GD) allows the government to change interest rates to compensate for the natural cycles of capitalism... and thereby attempt to avoid valleys. 4.) CIA/FBI/NSA Blah blah... 9/11... blah blah, don't do their job. Save it. Without these groups (which could only conceivably exist under a strong central/federal government), many of us would be dead now. We probably would have lost the Cold War. They have their problems, but they have had many successes as well. Be glad they're there. 5.) Basic Scientific Research Without the huge pockets that result from taxation of a country with 250,000,000 people in it, we simply could not fund many basic research projects. The space program, fusion research, fission research, initial biomedical research, etc. Many of these programs are simply not of interest to private companies because the monetary gain is so delayed (100 years off? ya right... companies look MAYBE 5 years into the future). 6.) Contract Resolution and Resource Dispersion In a small group of people, perhaps less than 100, there is a good chance that if two people get into a fight about trade or contracts, there will be some mutual buddy or relative to help resolve the dispute. When you have a country of 250,000,000 people, you MUST have a central government to resolve these issues. (Which ties into the monopoly of force point.) See "Guns, Germs, and Steel" by Jared Diamond for a very detailed reason why. 7.) Education? Infrastructure (electricity, roads, etc.)? As a libertarian, these are often points of contention for me. I think, in many ways, the government can do a good job at these, but they don't... why? Well, because we haven't been able to isolate our government from big money. Really, this can screw up 1 through 6 as well, and has in many cases, but that's not because of some inherit flaw in government... it's because the American people have been too stupid to vote these bastards out of office that fall victim to the greed, and elect people who will make changes to remove that temptation. Anyway, there are many more benefits, but I'm tired of writing. This post was edited by RMD on Saturday, November 30, 2002 at 23:19. |
| #13 By 2960 (68.100.157.191) at 12/1/2002 1:01:21 AM |
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#3,
IMHO, standards are important at the DOCUMENT level. How that document gets created/revised should be based on cost and performance, not politics like this. TL |
| #14 By 2332 (65.221.182.3) at 12/1/2002 1:02:01 PM |
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#43 - Please... stop trying to represent the average American, you're embarrassing me.
"Second I enjoy driving big 4x4's ya'll have been worrying about the spotted owl to much." Wow. Ok, first, what the hell does a 4x4 have to do with spotted owls? The spotted owl (of Oregon and Washington state) was endangered because of logging, not oil. Second, environmentalists rarely actually care about a single species. What they do is pick one that is cute, and that can be put on posters, so that people can more easily sympathize. (Read: so that stupid, short sighted people can more easily sympathize.) Once public support is on their side, it is far more likely they can protect the entire ecosystem that the cute animal is a part of. (When was the last "save the slug" campaign?) "In Europe they took up guns, you don't own a vehicle because fuel costs like $5 a gallon and so on." Not sure what the first part of your sentence is referring to, but have you ever asked yourself WHY European oil costs so much, and ours is so cheap? We get it from the same place! The reason is because we have special deals going with many oil producing countries... deals like "we will ignore you funding terrorism, violating basic human rights, etc., as long as you give us cheap oil". "your just jealous because you are living in a unhappy land over their with no future" Hmmm... considering Europe contains the home of most of the scientific progress going on today, contains the freest countries in the world (the US is ranked 13th on the UN Freedom Index), has far less crime (especially murder), and, in general, has a more educated population... I'm not sure how you're coming to this conclusion. If anything, I see the United States as going down a very dangerous path. One filled with irrationality and failure. Just because we've got a big military and lots of money does not guarantee our success. "Plus we threw you out during the revolution then we had to save Europe in WW2 so same story different time." Well, last I checked, we were isolationists while WW2 was going on (not to mention the fact that we would have never won the revolutionary war without FRENCH help... they gave us lots of guns)... and it wasn't until the Japanese bombed the hell out of us that we decided to get involved. Even then, without the aide of the USSR, and our European allies, we would not have won WW2. In fact, dumb luck was a huge factor. If our carriers were at Pearl Harbor on the day of the attack, and were sunk, we would have lost the war... or at least taken massive causalities and been occupied by the axis. Without the carriers to protect the Pacific front, there would have been nothing to stop Japan from occupying Hawaii, building up their forces, and attacking California. One big reason we're as powerful as we are is our isolation from other countries geographically. Anyway... please disregard bwoa's ignorance. While he does probably represent the attitude of a considerable portion of the United States, he sure as hell doesn't represent mine. |
| #15 By 135 (208.50.206.187) at 12/1/2002 1:12:39 PM |
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matgarnz - Huh? I have no idea what EFTPOS is, so I did a google search.
http://www.businesssystems.co.nz/eftpos.htm I don't know why you call it EFTPOS. But it's basically a electronic device that sits up by the cash register that you put your ATM or credit card through and then sign on the display. These have been in the states for about 10 years, and virtually every major retailer has them. I remember them being first introduced at grocery stores, and then Best Buy. I've never figured out non-Americans obsession with mobile phones. I have one through T-Mobile and get very good coverage, and hardly ever use the damn thing. It's not for lack of coverage, as I can drive from Minneapolis to Des Moines to visit friends and relatives and have mobile coverage the entire trip. |
| #16 By 135 (208.50.206.187) at 12/1/2002 1:24:11 PM |
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I think mwoa is mhfm. :(
I'm not a particularly big fan of idiotic nationalism. There's a lot about the US which is great, but there is a lot that could use improvement, and I really don't see any reason to go around rubbing things in people's noses. We were effective in aiding allies in WWII because our country had an abundance of natural resources and two oceans protecting our factories from being bombed weekly. That and we were scared shitless that they would lose and we'd be all alone in this world. Ok, so the other day I'm sitting there listening to the CBC(Canadian version of BBC for you ignorants) and they were having a debate on how to fix their health care system. They were going back and forth on a number of issues, the topic of privatization came up and I heard this quote: "I think we can all agree that nobody wants a system like the United States has, but..." I nearly fell out of my chair laughing. |
| #17 By 2332 (65.221.182.3) at 12/1/2002 1:46:02 PM |
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Soda... have you seen "Bowling for Columbine"... the film by Michael Moore?
While the movie is a bit unfocused, and he leaves a few points unanswered, I highly recommend seeing it. I think you would like it. My only major gripe, which will make sense once you see the movie, is: Fear may cause people to buy guns and act irrationally, but it's not fear that causes two kids to go and shoot up a school. It's anger. |
| #18 By 135 (208.50.206.187) at 12/1/2002 8:06:07 PM |
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RMD - No, I haven't seen it. I saw "Roger and Me" in the theatre and it was funny. [BTW, that film must have come out in '89 and I was in college... so that shows how old I am :)]
I think it's already out of the theatres up here, so I'll wait for video. Maybe do a documentary night, as there was a Dot Com movie I'd like to rent and laugh at too. :) You're right though. Fear doesn't cause kids to shoot up a school. My theory on this is that as our population grows we become less and less important in the grand scheme. High School/College is sort of that transition, and some people don't handle it well. It's a self-esteem issue, a feeling of non-importance and so forth. I'm not sure how we address this, but I wonder if part of what contributes to this is how segregated our society has become between kids and adults. bwoa - Uh huh. I have some beach front property in Arizona to sell. Interested? |
| #19 By 2332 (65.221.182.3) at 12/1/2002 9:09:48 PM |
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#48 - Have a flag on your SUV, do you? Sigh...
I love America too, but just because I love it doesn't mean I'm blind to its faults. For instance: 1.) The United States is 13th on the UN Human Freedom Index. 2.) The United States is significantly behind the rest of the industrialized world with regards to an educated populous. (Going off of standardized math/science tests.) 3.) The United States has more than 2 MILLION people in jail, more than half of which are there for "crimes" which hurt nobody. (Consensual crimes.) Talk about a violation of human rights. 4.) The United States is the world's largest polluter, per capita. 5.) The United States has the largest murder rate in the WORLD, per capita. 6.) The United States has one of the largest populations of homeless citizens in the industrialized world, per capita. 7.) The United States has one of the largest wealth gaps in the industrialized world, with nearly 80% of the wealth belonging to 20% of the people, and with almost 20% of the wealth belonging to just 1%. I could continue, but you get the point. (Or do you?) See, it's possible to both love a country, and to criticize its faults. In fact, the founding fathers believed it was your DUTY to improve your country through speech... hence that pesky thing called the first amendment. Read it sometime. "There are plenty of people who think the same as me, look at the election and it shows, they voted out the Democrats and put real leadership in office" Yes, and there are plenty of people who believe that Christmas has something to do with Christ, that global warming doesn't exist, and that UFOs abduct people. Just because you're in the majority (and just barely, at that), doesn't mean you're right. People are sheep... the best you can hope for is to pick the better flock. #49 - Soda - My theory is that sometimes kids are picked on so much, they can't stand it anymore, and with guns readily available, they act our their anger with deadly force. I was picked on relentlessly by kids up until late in high school, and I can tell you one thing for sure, if I had access to guns... well... I'm not sure what would have happened. What really ticks me off about many of these school shootings is that parents, the media, politicians... they all blame music, games... things they can ban... but they seem to glaze over the fact that bullies pushed these kids over the edge. The Capitan of the football team (the all-American kid) is usually also the kid who picks on kids and drives them to do these things. Bullies are not nearly as easy to control... so we ignore them. |
| #20 By 1845 (12.254.162.111) at 12/1/2002 9:53:11 PM |
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soda, bwoa doesn't have mhfm's MO. m would tell that we are going to hell, not paint a blind, rosy picture. I'd put my money on bwoa being eagle, kaboom. , and perhaps even the newest arrival Lindows_rules. Even though eagle and kaboom. are pro Microsoft and Lindows_rules is pro Lindows, the trolling MO is the same. Whether they are the same or not, I think they are all worthy of being ignored.
I suppose one good thing about trolls is that when they result in an intelligent response from a good site citizen, the response is good reading. Skimming this thread, I was pleased to read RMD's comments, though unhappy about the state of affairs that he points out. bas, I'd like to see their militaries fight it out too (rather than civilians fighting), but I don't expect it to happen. |
| #21 By 135 (208.50.206.187) at 12/1/2002 11:23:26 PM |
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RMD - Yeah, bullying plays a part to. I think that also has something to do with the point I alluded to of people getting lost in the system. Some who have a little bit of power go the bullying route. Those with no power either turn to isolation, or in the extreme cases come back with the guns. Definately understand.
BobSmith - I don't know, I think mhfm is a man-made troll. I can't imagine anybody is really that dumb except on purpose. :) bas - The attitude towards Israel by much of the world community has been somewhat hypocritic. That's fortunately been changing for the better as of late with Amnesty International finally coming out and pointing out suicide/homocide bombings are violations of human rights, as are using civilian positions to launch attacks from and so forth. I think the Palestinians are beginning to learn that noone intelligent has much sympathy for them any longer. |
| #22 By 135 (208.50.206.187) at 12/1/2002 11:25:47 PM |
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JWM - Ok, Saudi Arabia is pretty intolerant of Christians, and they sure don't treat women very well.
But I haven't seen many reports of them using mustard gas, nerve agents, or attacking any of their neighboring countries. Furthermore, the rules of Saudi Arabia just plain aren't evil. Their biggest problem is that the rulers want progress and the religious authorities want to hold everything back. I'm glad the US has Seperation of Church and State. I'd hate to be in a position like Iran or Saudi Arabia where the religious authorities had any say over our politics. |
| #23 By 1845 (12.254.162.111) at 12/2/2002 12:13:07 AM |
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J, your facts are a little spun.
While it is assumed (personally I haven't seen proof of it) that 14 of the 17 9/11 murderers came from Saudi Arabia, that doesn't show that Saudi Arabia is a breeding ground for international killers. Are you saying that 14 of 17 shows that their schools teach hatred of the United States? or do you have other proof of that? IIRC the princess money giving issue was long ago investigated by the FBI. Royalty quite often give money to the lower classes. Further, I thought the money was given to someone who in turn gave it to one of the alleged terrorists. The terrorist even paid back the loan, I thought. This doesn't seem like funding to me. This seems more like very loose circumstantial evidence. If you want to get crazy with money trails there is a link between an oil company that W was involved in which was connected to some other company that bin Laden was involved in. That doesn't mean that W and bin are best buds. My parents were both alive in the United States when Kennedy was shot, but that doesn't make them his killers. Saudi Arabia has been a powerful ally of the United States in the Arab world. I'd like to see your evidence that they, as a state, are a sponsor of anti United States terror groups. What proof do we have again about Saudi Arabian state sponsored terrorism? It is true that Saudi Arabi supplies us with oil. It is also true that even the sanctioned Iraq provides us with oil. There is a lot more than oil that associates the United States with Saudi Arabia. |
| #24 By 2332 (65.221.182.3) at 12/2/2002 12:56:06 AM |
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#58 - Bob...
"...that doesn't show that Saudi Arabia is a breeding ground for international killers" Correct, but it's fairly easy to follow the money trails back to the Saudis. Most of the information I'm familar with comes from reporters, not our government... so take that as you will. "Are you saying that 14 of 17 shows that their schools teach hatred of the United States" I'm not sure where JWM got his info, but I saw a Nightline about Saudi schools and they did mention that many of the faculty in these schools have "extreme bias" against the United States. "Saudi Arabia has been a powerful ally of the United States in the Arab world." How so? Other than giving us oil for pretty cheap, what have they done? They never stick up for us regarding Israel, and they sure as hell haven't done much about terrorism. Saudi Arabia is the center of the Muslim world, yet not a single Saudi leader has stood up and condemned sucide bombings or terrorist tactics. "What proof do we have again about Saudi Arabian state sponsored terrorism?" As far as I know, nothing directly links the Saudis to terrorism, but the money trail often stops one or two steps away from the top... especially when the investagations have been pretty fleeting... we need Saudi for our black drug. "There is a lot more than oil that associates the United States with Saudi Arabia." Like what? |
| #25 By 61 (65.32.170.1) at 12/2/2002 12:56:46 AM |
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bwoa: I'm ashamed to say that I'm registered with the same political party as you, you show an unbelievably low amount of intelligence.
The reason why we do not go after Israel is because we can control them, Isarael knows that if they were to show aggressive tendancies that we would pull the plug on them, or even worse. We do not have that same control over Saddam, as displayed by the Gulf War. |
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